Yes but on the realtime ladder games give more points than multiday games

I'm still waiting for master of desaster to answer those questions:

What about you? You want to keep it at more or less 10 templates?

...

The ladder is meant to be a match of skills. I think every template in the real-time ladder should be 0% luck.
Which real-time ladder template do you think is good for 16% luck?

...

You can even add 10 more. Move the entry level even higher and find the true master. But what's the point when there are too few people to join in reality?

thanks MOD. So they still give less points than a MD ladder game? If so, why?

i'd prefer 20 or more templates. voted by some good Players with a very good understanding of warlight and his maps.

i think 16% wr isn't that bad on 2 neutrals. mostly 0%wr is better but i hate the trend of removing every luck on warlight. it's unnecessary.

no Need to answer the last one. i explained my opinion on this before.

to Chris: i think ladders give all the same amount of Points.

I was a noob on all the templates, but it only took me a couple of months to be good/average on ALL of them

That is the issue. It took you a couple of months. This actually explains why the current participation rate is so low.

I remember someone opened a thread asking if they should join a RT ladder. Finally they joined but felt so overwhelmed. They quit immediately.

Its just a question of pratice, so don't complain about the "huge number" of Rt templates because if you are, you are not a good player.

Well I know a good player who hates multi-attack a lot, but they are good at 1v1 strategic. Does it make them a bad player?

I can force myself to master every aspect of the game (be an ultimate true master!), but it can get tedious and no fun. After all it's just a game. I'm not doing hard work. Why should I force myself to do that?

Edited 10/27/2015 20:39:20

why are you even considering to join ladders if you want to win only? the Goal is competition. not just getting good at one template and farm wins.

The biggest problem for 1v1 ladder is lack of activity and lack of new players.

Exactly!

Personally I'd think that in order to make rt ladder alive, changes in terms of restrictions are needed, my suggestion would be to allow any player with a confirmed e-mail address to play regardless of level and even encourage new players in some way to try their luck on rt ladder as one of their first exxperiences.

+1

introduce a veto system and give 2-3 vetoes for every player

I think it would be even better if we give players full control on what templates they want to play in RT ladders.

If you want to focus on one or a selected few, no problem! RT ladder is for you.
If you are like MoD and want to play many templates randomly, no problem! RT ladder is for you.

Let players choose. The participation rate will increase immediately.

Edited 10/27/2015 20:35:55

why are you even considering to join ladders if you want to win only? the Goal is competition. not just getting good at one template and farm wins.

Ask why some players dropped immediately after they lost a few games in the seasonal ladders. You will get the answer. Some don't mind losing. They will keep playing till the end. Some do. They want to win. They quit if they see there is (seemingly) no chance for them to be on the top.

The current RT ladder is not starter-friendly.

Edited 10/27/2015 20:39:54

normally i offer a discussion via pm at this Point if i feel like explaining someone how something works. but i feel there is no reason to discuss this with you. you're writing walls of text on a Topic you have no idea about. your comparisons are bad and so are many of your ideas. i won't try to explain you anything anymore.

MoD I assume your point against inquisitor is that players choosing what templates to play makes any rating system inherently unbalanced or at the very least inaccurate for showing real skill? If this isn't why you think inquisitor's ideas are bad, I have no clue what you think.

@inquisitor

If you really think that is the main problem, the solution would be to have an "unranked" section where players just get paired, play on templates that rt ladder uses and don't get any sort of rating. Still in current state it does not make sense, just because there are already so few people joining the ladder. Overall the argument about liking to win comes back to a pairing algorythm and activity, with enough players you will get paired with people close to your rating. I believe you are perceiving rt ladder through "1v1 ladder glasses", meaning you are accustomed to the fact, that people are making "runs", stalling and inflating their rating, after which they can either succeed or drop out and rejoin with an alt. From what I can gather, you are saying people cannot handle rt ladder, because they don't like when their rating is accurate, it'd be "best" if there was a way around the system to inflate a rating or get easy wins somewhow. If I misread what you wrote, please specify what exactly you'd want from rt ladder. If you want to make it starter friendly there are multiple ways to do it without changing the rating system (for example a tutorial where you play AI on every template would suffice and would be easy to implement if you really are worried about new players joining). Still, I think lack of activity, lack of vetoes (at least 1-2), lack of template diversity and, most importantly, lack of heavy promotion among newer players are far more important than the topic you discussed with mod.

I think it would be even better if we give players full control on what templates they want to play in RT ladders.

This I do not get, that's basically same as making a custom game yourself.

Before he wanted few templates.

Yes, to lower the entry barrier and boost the participation rate.
I would say a good starting point is 5. Try to have 5 only and see how it is going to help with the participation rate.

then after writing 2 sites of text he forgot his opinion and decided to state the opposite

if we give players full control on what templates they want to play in RT ladders

If we do this, it's no longer a ladder. Play open games or even coin games. then you got even a leaderboard too. i agree on letting everyone join no matter what Level, but don't adjust the templates for noobs! i also agree that over 20 templates having 2-3Vetos on some templates would be great, but full control? no way!

Yes but it is a barrier for new players since they have to familiarize so many templates before joining, not to say master them. Higher barrier => lower participation rate.

He decides that the hurdles for newer Players is too high because of the amount of templates, but who will Play the ladder when the noobs of today get better and want to Play serious games? They won't look for those at the realtime ladder. should we make it noobfriendly just so we get every day 10 new noobs joining the ladder while they stay 10more days on warlight and Forget about their account while old Players that would regulary Play it don't enjoy that ladder?

Having an opinion on everything isn't a bad Thing. opinions can change. but there's absolutely no Need to share some unqualified toughts over and over again just to have something written down on a serious post.

Edit: that was tought as answer for masterpierround. It took me so Long to write this so i didn't see Sze already gave an answer. sorry for repeating stuff.

Edited 10/27/2015 21:37:16

Ok, some general ideas to get some sort of a consensus:
1) decrease requirements for joining rt ladder, possibly e-mail verification (could possibly help with alts?) or lower level
2) advertise it even in single player section with a tutorial where you play an AI on every template currently in rt ladder pool (it'll be very easy, but it'll let players get accustomed to settings at least)
3) make automatically generated rt tournaments at fixed times where games are counted for rt ladder and every game is made from rt ladder pool (could be 2 tournaments daily where joining rt ladder means automatically joining that rt ladder tournament, throw in some achieements and/or trophies and voila, people will start playing), the downside is that actually requires a lot of work, getting an automated tournament system and bye system to work takes time
4) give players 1-2 vetoes with 10 templates and if the number ever increases to 15-20 give them 3, we won't hear more complaining about turkey ld etc.
5) if rt ladder becomes the most active ladder on warlight, give players an "unranked" section, where they just get paired for practise (probably the least important point)
6) don't ever use "no-luck" settings in rt games, trust me, picking becomes horrid, games become ironically less strategic
7) we have a trophy for beautiful maps, we have maps of the week etc., make similar things for templates. Fizzer, publicly state what kind of templates you need or search for, the community will respond in numbers. And they will do a better job most of the time. I'd argue that at this point, templates > maps since we have so many
8) if all works out, make some sort of an official tournament based on rt ladder long-term results (in chess there are a few ways to qualify for Candidates tournament for World Championship by long-term ELO rating), that'll incentivise best players to stay and play on rt ladder

Probably all can be done in that order. That's it from me, some food for thought.

I really like Sze's proposals. I think Fizzer is still thinking about ladders as rewards for investing time and/or money into the game via buying a membership or leveling up. That seems fine for the various multi day ladders that are doing well. However, since the RT ladder is lacking in participation it makes sense to encourage players to play it. Reducing the barrier to entry and promoting it more heavily would be great. This would also serve to introduce more new players to the competitive side of the game, which can only be a good thing.

The only downside of that is that it makes it easier for alts to invade the ladder, but given how easy it already is to put an alt on the ladder that doesn't seem like a big problem.

More templates coupled with a few vetoes would also be good, since I think party of what makes warlight great if the variety of templates that exist, though it is less critical.

@Sze

I don't think his problem is what you say. I think what he is saying is that instead of making runs, dropping out, then making another run, people make a run then drop out for good, which is bad for the ladder's popularity.


The funny thing is the ladder has been way more popular recently after the thread about its problems went up. I really like the idea of a "Template of the week" where maybe 4 templates are nominated by top 10 RT ladder players, and the 5th is nominated by a random player who is ranked on the RT ladder. Then, the players who are eligible to/have played games in the RT ladder can vote on which template to add for this week. This, and I believe it would need to come in conjunction with a couple vetoes, would be nice because it changes weekly, which increases the overall skill needed, but it also encourages play on the RT ladder.

Edited 10/27/2015 23:33:17

@Masterpierround

I understood that, my point was other ladders spoiled people, who got accustomed to being able to make runs that'd give them an inflated rating, so they get discouraged when the rating system is actually fair. I don't think at any point rt ladder should switch the rating system. In exchanged I proposed other ideas for short-term incentives, like generated real-time tournaments (got the idea from StarcraftII LOTV beta where it's been used in a similar way).

If the RT ladder had an "auto game" feature, where you join (without seeing a map, just a question mark) that was on the open games I would play it. This would allow me to simply join for a game, without having to go to the ladder page to join, then also remember to leave. (Would also need the hidden names from coin games etc.) Worth the work I belive.

Bump. Let's make the rt ladder more enjoyable again!