Really guys we're descending into Ethnic and Racial supremacy arguments. At least bring up IQ scores...Jews and Asians dominate in that, so I guess your argument of european supremacy is kind of mute.

@JaiBharat909

I know the UN has no power to interfere inside the countries, but I am saying that one of their main arguments is "The UN said that", when it's certainly not true. I also know UN is not really representative, it serves the 'big countries' interests, and that will keep happening while veto exists. But yet, their right to self-determination would not be political, or juridical, so they should try to negotiate if they want some improvements, they have no legal basis for what they are doing, and definitely no organisation will recognise it, you just need to look at Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia...

And about the Catalan "cultural differences"... Just wtf. Do you really think Castilian psicology is based on mysticism? That explanation is highly pejorative and xenophobic, man. 19th Century nationalisms are just ethnocentric, and discriminatory. I know Vicens Vives might have been a good, wise person, but nationalism blinds reason. And one important thing, you'd better learn it now: CASTILE DOESN'T DANCE FLAMENCO. Never ever. That is an Andalusian tradition, not Castilian. And yet it has been identified with Spain. You see what I meant? Spain is not based on Castile. Or another traditional Spanish food, paella... It is Valencian. And yet it is well known as aa Spanish representative food. (I want to remark now that, according to Catalans, Valencia share their culture, so we would be saying that the most famous Spanish food is from the Catalan subculture). About bullfighting... Catalonia banned it just 3 years ago, with the start of Artur Mas' independentist campaign. But they have not been the first, of course. Canary Islands banned them long time ago. Or for example, many famous bullfighters are from Catalonia. So, even if I don't really like it, it is not a Castilian tradition, but a Spanish one, including there.

Their own language? Half Spain does too, and even Valencia and Balearics, speaking Catalan, refuse to use it as a difference towards Spain. Their own flag? LOL. They have been using Aragon's flag for centuries, they have not one. And even, if you keep it that way... Spanish modern flag is based in the Aragon flag. Not in the Castilian, Leonese, or Navarre flags. The Aragon one. And yet we don't start crying "OH NO CHANGE THE FLAG, THIS STATE IS ARAGON-CENTRIST". About Franco: He did on everyone, including Castilians opposing to him (more than half of them, probably). And OF COURSE Catalonia has an unequal relationship regarding to taxes... Otherwise, this would be a Confederation, not an autonomic state. Debts come from bad management, not from us: Otherwise, according to you, every region here would be as indebted as them. And finally, to last:

Catalonia actually has a greater GDP than the rest of Spain combined.

Sure? Check it. Catalonia makes less than 1/5 of Spanish GDP, so you were certainly wrong. The community also makes 1/6 of Spanish population. They are a relatively richer community, yes, but they are not "richer than the rest of Spain". There is a difference among posting real facts, and exaggerations.

Hope I answered everything you said. BTW, where are you from? Just curious.

And now it comes the time I answer the nonsense arguments from @AngryPanda lol.

Basques this side of the Pyrenees are Spanish, they were Spanish, and they will always be doesn't matter their loyalty. The same applies for Catalonia, Portugal, Andorra, Gibraltar or the French Cerdanya. SPAIN = IBERIA. I have already had with you this conversation, and I can say it as many times as needed. Spanish state maybe stopped representing Portugal long ago, but they have never stopped being Spanish = Iberian. For example, a different example would be Canary Islands. If they stopped being in the Spanish state, they would stop being Spanish. Why? They are not in Spain. As simple. However they would keep Spanish traditions, culture, and whatever. But they wouldn't be part of geographical Spain, just they would be part of a cultural Spain.

And again. Not all Basques are Spanish, as well as not all Catalans are Spanish. Those over the Pyrenees are not geographically Spanish, so even if they had Spanish traditions they would be only cultural Spain, not real Spain. It is true Spanish Kingdoms controlled those lands at one point (either Navarre or Aragon) but it would be as when Spain landed in Ceuta and Melilla, they are cultural Spain but not geographical one.

And, if everyone still doubts: Spain is a geographical term. Spain represents a geographical entity. All Spanish cultures are recognised, being all equally Spanish. And even if they seceded: They could stop being politically Spanish, but they are going to be Spanish forever.

No it isn't ashkenazis have superior IQ. They're the only jews with above average IQ and they are european (mostly italian). Also asians study for those tests extensively so no.

LOL how can you study for an IQ test?

Edited 11/9/2015 19:43:36

Iberia is a geographical term cf the Iberian Peninsula, so again wrong Pablo, and no Pablo, soon the Basques will be independent, again. Our culture, our people, our language are far too different compared to the rest of Spain.

Askatasuna lortuko dugu!

@Pablo - I am from New Jersey in the US but I keep track of the politics of Russia, UK, Germany, Spain, Italy, Russia, China, India, Canada, and Hungary.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/11984516/Catalonias-parliament-votes-to-begin-setting-up-an-independent-state.html

I guess you're not thrilled by what the Catalonian parliament did. Just want to mention that you're whole point is that there are differences between each region of spain but the identity of spain is each of these regions combined into 1 whole country. I can respectfully agree to that, but what do you do when a large section of a region believes that they are not culturally or politically in tune with the rest of the country? Do you force them (through military or economic threats) to stay in the country? The fact that the UK allowed Scotland to hold a referendum is VALIDATION of the right of Catalonia to secede (or gives it support). Again I don't believe that Catalans should vote to secede, but only that they have the right to do so in a democratic referendum.

clearly you've never taken an IQ test before AOE

soon the Basques will be independent, again

Yeah, and let's free Catalonia why we're at it. Oh, and give Scottish independence too. Might as well see how many tiny little countries we can split Europe into. And why stop at Europe? There's many people in the U.S who want Texan independence once again. Balkanization for everyone!

In seriousness though, why? What's with people wanting to turn the entire planet into a confederation of tiny states with limited land and resources? Self-Determination is important to an extent, but there needs to be a limit.

Eklipse stop being ridiculous would you? if you know nothing about Basque history/culture then you better not argue here about it. And wtf do you have against tiny states? I would rather prefer a world composed of a confederation of peaceful tiny states rather than a world composed of suprematist superpowers wanting to possess, control and rule everyone and everything (i guess you know what im talking about, see Cold War US vs USSR, or soon US vs China).

I have to agree with Angry Panda. Small nations can better serve their citizens, which is why Federal Government should be decentralized so smaller states and local governments have more control. A political government grows more inefficient and less able to address its people's needs as the population and size increases.

scottish indpencnede wopwop garlic :D

@Eklipse is right. I hope for a future stateless society, but the way to get it is not dividing, but merging. A pan-European has spoken.

And well, @JaiBharat, it's not the same. Scotland is a constituent Nation inside the UK, recognised as such. Their Kingdom is, actually, a personal union, if you see it. Spain used to be a personal union long ago, but around 1700 it became a single state. And if someone had that right to secede, it would be Aragon as a whole, not just Catalonia. Catalan independence would be like a Highlands independence, or the Scottish-speaking Scotland. Also, I think this is not a real feeling from the Catalans, but instead a form to express disagreement with some politicians in Spain. For example, separatists 10 years ago made about 15%. Now they are a 47%. I don't really think that is a true feeling, but a refusal to much from the political class in Spain, that happened everywhere, yes, but in this region expressed that way. Without an economical crisis, we wouldn't be in this situation. And also... What about the regions inside Catalonia that don't want independence? Would the Barcelona metro region, openly pro-Spain in a 75%, be allowed to stay? I don't think so. Or if separatists lost, don't you think they would try to set future referendums until they win? This is a lot more complex than just self-determination.

But anyway, note I'm not against a referendum, but against an unilateral secession. I have my opinion about that too, but I don't really oppose a referendum, if it is negotiated from both sides.

or the Scottish-speaking Scotland

looooooool. Scottishspeaking Scotlan d xD XD Theres like lses than 100k people in Scotandln that speakj GAELIC!!!!1 not scottihs. pretty mjch most of the coutnry speak "Scots" though. A dialect of English that is very unique. juq says he finds it hardh to read between Scots & Englush but I see little dsifference.

hIGHLANDS INDEPENDDNECE! Hah, that is ridiculous. like 4 people live there. sleepybear, and his alts. xD XD XD XD

and thats kinda sad Ox, the ancestral language of the Scottish people is the Scottish language (the Celtic one), not that 'dialect' as you are saying.

And Pablo I am also for a referendum and never said I was in favor of an undemocratic/violent method to achieve independence (see ETA). So yes I do hope Spain would let and respect a referendum amongst the Basques or the Catalans, as for now Spain still blocks any attempt of referendum (like France, but France is worse in that case), so the first step would be to let people democratically choose their destiny: Be independent or stay with Spain, but finally any choices and the final decision should be respected by both parties (pro Spain and pro Independentist sides).

Eklipse stop being ridiculous would you? if you know nothing about Basque history/culture then you better not argue here about it.

Admittedly I'm not an expert, but that doesn't invalidate me from discussing the issue. However, I'll keep this rhetoric in mind the next time you put your two cents into an American based topic.

Now, do you have any counter-points or is your only defense to call me ridiculous just because I'm not from Basque?

And wtf do you have against tiny states?

I have nothing against the ones who currently exist. I'm opposed to carving up the world into more of them, however. Letting every little secessionist movement have their way would be horrible for the entire planet. Said tiny states would have massive resource shortages, very little individual power or influence, and it's very likely the world would degenerate into mass wars as the ungodly amount of small countries fight each other for any number of reasons.

It always shocks me whenever a European brings up these kind of arguments. I always thought that most European ideologies were anti-nationalist and pro-unity. Seems to me that splitting Europe's major powers into a bunch of smaller nations would be a step backwards from the EU's goal of unification. (I'm no fan of the EU personally, but from an objective standpoint I think their vision of Europe is far better than a Balkanized nightmare)

Note: I'm not trying to over-generalize Europeans,I realize that every person is different, I'm referring more to recurring ideologies I've noticed in repeated discussions with people of Europe.

I would rather prefer a world composed of a confederation of peaceful tiny states rather than a world composed of suprematist superpowers wanting to possess, control and rule everyone and everything (i guess you know what im talking about, see Cold War US vs USSR, or soon US vs China).

A quagmire of small feuding states isn't much better. At-least the threat of mass destruction will keep larger nations in deadlock.

Where do you garner this assumption that a confederation of tiny states would make the world more peaceful? It's far more likely to have the opposite effect as you're unnecessarily separating people with additional artificial divides.

This is very complex topic and I disagree with Eklipse on this

I want to be able to choose my favourite country with best opportunities and place to live, and when all of continent is divided into few huge countries my choices are limited.

And wars will always be no matter if countries are big or not and no matter divided or not.

No century has ever been free of war. To theorize that smaller nations would have less or more wars is completely subjective and has no basis in fact.

Eklipse, this is your opinion, if people choose independence so be it, I would rather be in an united federal peaceful Europe composed of tiny states well representing each culture and people rather than some medium states like Spain, France, UK declining and struggling to maintain their supremacy. Eklipse you do not understand what is going on in Europe because you arent European. Do you think being the biggest one is that important? Europe has gone through this for millenias, endless wars where big kingdoms and great empires wanted to rule the entire continent. Build an empire has often proven to be more disastrous than anything. And yes I believe tiny states would solve and prevent wars, here i'm talking about big conflicts like during world wars when empires were struggling for supremacy, or nowadays with America building military bases everywhere and threatening the world peace each time they decide to invade a nation for greed and false reasons (see Irak). So no I definitely dont see superpowers as a good thing, and you would see through the History that the biggest warmongers werent those tiny states we were talking about.

If the Catalans, the Corsicans or the Basques choose to become independent, just respect their decision.

PS: Basque Country is the correct name of the territory you were talking about, Basque alone means nothing.

Eklipse, this is your opinion, if people choose independence so be it, I would rather be in an united federal peaceful Europe composed of tiny states well representing each culture and people rather than some medium states like Spain, France, UK declining and struggling to maintain their supremacy. Eklipse you do not understand what is going on in Europe because you arent European. Do you think being the biggest one is that important? Europe has gone through this for millenias, endless wars where big kingdoms and great empires wanted to rule the entire continent. Build an empire has often proven to be more disastrous than anything. And yes I believe tiny states would solve and prevent wars, here i'm talking about big conflicts like during world wars when empires were struggling for supremacy, or nowadays with America building military bases everywhere and threatening the world peace each time they decide to invade a nation for greed and false reasons (see Irak). So no I definitely dont see superpowers as a good thing, and you would see through the History that the biggest warmongers werent those tiny states we were talking about.

If the Catalans, the Corsicans or the Basques choose to become independent, just respect their decision.

PS: Basque Country is the correct name of the territory you were talking about, Basque alone means nothing.