The US funds Daesh.

Also, "self-determination".

UN gives a **** about your will of independence. They have never supported any kind of separatist movement from Spain. However, they have instead called for unity and cooperation among individuals, as well as in the Spanish case. If you were ready to inform yourself, you would know about the UN Resolution #2625, where they made it clear: self-determination is in any way not directed to break a sovereign, democratic, and representative state. Catalonia, Euskadi, they are both autonomous, and represented. In other words: if you want to keep defending your referendum, do it, but don't try to put the UN on your side. The international community has already shown support to Spain at many times, and you perfectly know it: No country would recognise an unilateral secession.

Tl;Dr version: Catalonia or Euskadi would become the new Nagorno-Karabakh, ignored by everyone else. The only you can do is negotiate concrete reforms, or you will not achieve anything.

Also, I don't mind if you have a trans-state metro area. We are not France, we don't mind what you do at regional level as long as it doesn't affect national level. Wanna make a transcontinental Basque city? Go ahead.

And you talk about great Basque explorers, marines, and such. The same ones who were proud Spaniards / Frenchmen, you mean? Actually, in my profile Biography I quote a Basque man, Blas de Lezo, who leaded one of the most humiliating defeats in British war history, and resisted the World's biggest amphibious operation (until Normandy during WW2) against Cartagena de Indias. Most Basque great men were also Spanish great men. Don't forget it, when you lay claim to history for your ideology.

Another invent of yours, is the fact that I never said Navarre hasn't always spoken Basque. What I say is that they do not feel Basque, but Navarrese. Because their historic identity is stronger than its linguistic identity, even in many Basque speakers.

The "Hablame en Cristiano" is not because of you, Mr. Ego ;) It is a common saying when you can't understand the other's statement. Or when, in this case, you can't understand the other's language. No one thinks you are barbaric, for sure. And if Roncalese Basque is extinct is not because of us, but because Navarre people doesn't speak it. Don't blame us for everything, damn. "Espanyaensroba" is nothing new.

And, as I said at the beginning, I personally don't oppose them being asked. But I won't allow their democratically-elected government to break rules. I already know a majority of both Basques and Catalans refuse independence, and that amount is even bigger if that means leaving the EU. But if they were let to break rules, THEN it would be when the Spanish state would be weak, even treating differently their citizens. Never, ever. Negociate it, or no referendum will ever be recognised.

Oh, and about the Spanish invents I said:

First electric submarine: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peral_Submarine

Autogyro (precursor of helicopter, so not technically an helicopter, but still invented by us): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogyro

Spain will never divide. Many spaniards would fight for its unity. Some catalan bourgeoisie wont divide ages of common history and brotherhood.

Be carefull with what you say, because i saw some comments defending a terrorist group that killed a thousand inocents in Spain and France, ETA. You use internet anonymity to say things you dont say in your life.


I love my country, and your hate comments wont change my mind.
¡CIERRA ESPAÑA!

Edited 2/12/2016 17:19:24

ETA also killed many innocent Basques that have nothing to do with politics.......ETA has been so disastrous for Spain (including basque country) as they were in his day the government of general Franco, or the GAL.

Mucho gilipollas hay por aquí defendiendo gilipolleces. Hay que leer más y hablar menos, ser mas respetuoso y menos agresivo.

Mientras el mundo lucha por unirse, en España sigue habiendo los típicos reprimidos que lo único que intenta es separarse, buscar confrontaciones y mostrar como de grande es su polla.

Grow up kids, shut up and play warlight

Today I got across four basques (I assume they were, since they were using "EusK" on their clan tag and their emblem was the basque flag) in CoD Black Ops 3.

Christ, never seen someone throw the game so goddamn hard. If they fight for their independence as 'skilfully' as they play, then drop the "Independentzia!" stuff before you're put to shame.

1) You are assuming I don't want them to vote. What I don't want is an illegal referendum, because I will never allow anyone break the rules. If it is made with the approval from Spaniards, I wouldn't even care. They are in no way better than us to decide which laws they can break.

2) Hypocrite. Do you seriously think I have never criticized Francoist Regime? I did even in my previous walltext. I have said several times to you, in other times "Fuck Franco, I don't care about him". You should actually remember it. And, to clarify: I am not a leftist, I don't know who told you that. I am a progressive liberal. Again, tell me how is that compatible with a conservative dictatorship, like Francoist one.

Pablo, two fast answers:

1)Illegal referendum? Illegal according to Spain you mean? Spaniards have no approval to make, if the Basques want independence that's their choice, not the Spaniards'.

2) The Hypocrite is you, you did criticize the Franquist regime, but here you were praising their actions in Catalonia. How can you even find a positive thing they made, since there are none. Catalonia under Franco was a shit place, I know people that went to Catalonia in the 70s, it was a place of great misery, and the Catalans there were as I told you earlier second class citizens living in places like Barcelona in shantytowns or slum areas.

Now, ETA. Your only argument is "Oh ETA might not be that good but Spanish oppressors had a counterterrorist group for 5 years".

The GAL, were a secret group that, when it was discovered, it made its leaders GO TO PRISON. By the Spanish Justice. I doubt you would put your "beloved" ETA leaders in prison.

You are kidding right? “secret group”? Ahahah... This group was created by the Spanish government, so tell me how they could ignore its existence? Of course they will never admit they openly created it, because then the Spanish State would be criminal and would have to pay greatly for this: first by killing innocents, but also by not respecting International Law when they were raiding in France illegally, I actually cant understand how the French was that much lazy and coward to not take actions against Spain or sue them to international courts.

The GAL was horrible, true. They killed 26 people for 5 years. But does it make ETA good? Tell me how! ETA killed 829 (official) to 858 (claimed) people, for more than 50 years. I don't mind whether they kill 26 or 858, but if they are ready to kill, they must be rejectable. Why should we have negociated with terrorists? Would you see USA, Russia or the EU negotiating with Daesh? Daesh and Eta and Gal are equally bad. From the single moment they are willing to murder a single person, they should be excluded from any democratic system, and punished for their acts.

I never defended ETA stop putting words in my mouth. The thing is every time we talk about independence you will answer ETA, for you separatists are terrorists. ETA did stopped its activity, and all I said is that the Spanish State did not helped at all, they even worsened the situation, the Spanish government is not wanting peace, because it would ruin their efforts to denigrate the Basques, they do not want a peaceful Basque Country because they know that if the Basques achieve democratically and peacefully the process for selfdetermination, they are screwed.
ETA killed almost one thousand people and so you will blame the Basques for this? ETA is a monster that was created under Franquism, an extreme answer to an extreme condition. GAL however was created while Spain was already a “democratic” nation. You see the difference now?

Also, "self-determination".

UN gives a **** about your will of independence. They have never supported any kind of separatist movement from Spain. However, they have instead called for unity and cooperation among individuals, as well as in the Spanish case. If you were ready to inform yourself, you would know about the UN Resolution #2625, where they made it clear: self-determination is in any way not directed to break a sovereign, democratic, and representative state. Catalonia, Euskadi, they are both autonomous, and represented. In other words: if you want to keep defending your referendum, do it, but don't try to put the UN on your side. The international community has already shown support to Spain at many times, and you perfectly know it: No country would recognise an unilateral secession.

Tl;Dr version: Catalonia or Euskadi would become the new Nagorno-Karabakh, ignored by everyone else. The only you can do is negotiate concrete reforms, or you will not achieve anything.

Tell me why Kofi Annan was hence presiding the summit for peace talk in the Basque Country, if they dont care at all about us? What you say is so irrelevant, the UN does not have to side with someone, the UN will just approve if the Basques or the Catalans vote for independence, that's all.
Spain is just delaying the time when we will finally vote for selfdetermination, but you know I'm sure (even if you neglect it) that one day the Catalans and the Basques will have the possibility to vote for independence, like it or not. In 2014, 80% of the Catalans voted for independence (during the referendum held by the Government of Catalonia) will you keep not listening to those 80% of Catalans?

Also, I don't mind if you have a trans-state metro area. We are not France, we don't mind what you do at regional level as long as it doesn't affect national level. Wanna make a transcontinental Basque city? Go ahead.

And you talk about great Basque explorers, marines, and such. The same ones who were proud Spaniards / Frenchmen, you mean? Actually, in my profile Biography I quote a Basque man, Blas de Lezo, who leaded one of the most humiliating defeats in British war history, and resisted the World's biggest amphibious operation (until Normandy during WW2) against Cartagena de Indias. Most Basque great men were also Spanish great men. Don't forget it, when you lay claim to history for your ideology.

Pablo, this was a different time, and a different period. Nowadays Basques are different, yes the Basques used to be patriots (by patriots I mean supporting Spain or France). But this is no longer the case now, the reign of Franco greatly accelerated the will of freedom and independence. Now if you are nostalgic of the time when Spain was one, blame Franco.

Another invent of yours, is the fact that I never said Navarre hasn't always spoken Basque. What I say is that they do not feel Basque, but Navarrese. Because their historic identity is stronger than its linguistic identity, even in many Basque speakers.

The "Hablame en Cristiano" is not because of you, Mr. Ego ;) It is a common saying when you can't understand the other's statement. Or when, in this case, you can't understand the other's language. No one thinks you are barbaric, for sure. And if Roncalese Basque is extinct is not because of us, but because Navarre people doesn't speak it. Don't blame us for everything, damn. "Espanyaensroba" is nothing new.

And, as I said at the beginning, I personally don't oppose them being asked. But I won't allow their democratically-elected government to break rules. I already know a majority of both Basques and Catalans refuse independence, and that amount is even bigger if that means leaving the EU. But if they were let to break rules, THEN it would be when the Spanish state would be weak, even treating differently their citizens. Never, ever. Negociate it, or no referendum will ever be recognised.

The thing that you still do not get is that Navarrese is a synonym of Basque.

“Hablame en Cristiano” was indeed used against the Basque speakers, this is not something I invented, go to the Basque Country and ask the Elder ones if you do not believe me.
Btw, the first time I heard this sentence, it was while listening to Alaitz eta Maider a Girl Folk music band, they were quite popular some years ago, if you are interested here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdwV3BgTTHQ (song Hablame en Cristiano by Alaitz eta Maider).

I can blame the Spaniards for Roncalese, since I believe you did not even bothered to find information about it, the Roncalese language died because Roncalese kids speaking it were constantly reprimanded in School, under Franco, as I told you speaking Basque in public was like defying the state an some people were killed for it, just this greatly increased the agony of this dialect, and last but not least a great emigration of Spaniards also denatured the Roncal Valley and their culture, and little by little the last Roncalese speakers died. Navarre as a whole suffered greatly of this period, not only Roncalese but most of the central parts of Navarre where Basque was spoken were lost. You know the funny thing is that if you go to Navarre you will find more people having Basque surnames or traits compared to Biscay or Guipuzcoa.
You know the 3 provinces of Euskadi used to be part of the Kingdom of Navarre, so trying to say the Navarrese are not Basques or the Basques are not Navarrese is irrelevant:
Nafarroako Erresuma Euskal Herria da, eta Euskal Herria Nafarroa da.

Spain sadly is responsible for my country's existence.

Oh my god. Walls of text... Walls of text everywhere.

Spain will never divide. Many spaniards would fight for its unity. Some catalan bourgeoisie wont divide ages of common history and brotherhood.

Be carefull with what you say, because i saw some comments defending a terrorist group that killed a thousand inocents in Spain and France, ETA. You use internet anonymity to say things you dont say in your life.


I love my country, and your hate comments wont change my mind.
¡CIERRA ESPAÑA!

Spaniards will certainly fight for its unity sure, but the Basques and the Catalans wont.

I never defended ETA you blindfuck, again another Spaniard mixing everything and brainwashed by the nationalist propaganda, truly a shame.

ETA also killed many innocent Basques that have nothing to do with politics.......ETA has been so disastrous for Spain (including basque country) as they were in his day the government of general Franco, or the GAL.

I know this, and better than anyone here, I even know people that were directly targeted by ETA, I sadly also know someone that lost his father killed by these GAL Spanish nationalist scums.

Today I got across four basques (I assume they were, since they were using "EusK" on their clan tag and their emblem was the basque flag) in CoD Black Ops 3.

Christ, never seen someone throw the game so goddamn hard. If they fight for their independence as 'skilfully' as they play, then drop the "Independentzia!" stuff before you're put to shame.

Ahahah I also used to use "EUSK" as a clan tag while playing games online x) Yeah you can find us easily truth be told.

Some quick intro: I also remembered the bisected Anarchist flag was invented in Spain, and First used by the anarcho-sindicalists of the CNT. Likewise, the famous Ⓐ symbol (enclosed A) was originated in the Spanish Federation of the First International, before it was adopted and made mainstream by many anarchist punk groups.

As you can see, anarchism had a huge base in Spanish workers. Spain is probably the only, or one of the very few countries where anarchism was more widespread than socialism (until Francoist regime).

Edited 2/13/2016 00:21:05

1)Illegal referendum? Illegal according to Spain you mean? Spaniards have no approval to make, if the Basques want independence that's their choice, not the Spaniards'.

2) The Hypocrite is you, you did criticize the Franquist regime, but here you were praising their actions in Catalonia. How can you even find a positive thing they made, since there are none. Catalonia under Franco was a shit place, I know people that went to Catalonia in the 70s, it was a place of great misery, and the Catalans there were as I told you earlier second class citizens living in places like Barcelona in shantytowns or slum areas.

1) "If I don't want to pay taxes, Spaniards have no approval to make. If I want not to pay taxes that's my choice, not the Spaniards'."

2) Learning just 5 hours of Catalan is not praisable. What I did is comparing the current situation with the Francoist regime's one. And according to the facts, Catalan president is more like a dictator, almost banning Castilian from public education, yet knowing more than 50% of Catalan families are Castilian-speaking as their first language. Apart from the fact that "Catalans lived as second-class citizens in Barcelona"... Man, all people living in Barcelona are Catalan (and therefore Spanish) people, regardless of ideology or language. So that makes no sense. Franco was not a really moral person, but I think that statement is not true unless you can prove it. If they were such people in such living conditions, it would be because of poverty, as in most cities in the world there are sub-neighbourhoods.

You are kidding right? “secret group”? Ahahah... This group was created by the Spanish government, so tell me how they could ignore its existence? Of course they will never admit they openly created it, because then the Spanish State would be criminal and would have to pay greatly for this: first by killing innocents, but also by not respecting International Law when they were raiding in France illegally, I actually cant understand how the French was that much lazy and coward to not take actions against Spain or sue them to international courts.

The government did know about it. Spanish society, however, didn't. When it was discovered, they were judged and condemned to prison.

I never defended ETA stop putting words in my mouth. The thing is every time we talk about independence you will answer ETA, for you separatists are terrorists. ETA did stopped its activity, and all I said is that the Spanish State did not helped at all, they even worsened the situation, the Spanish government is not wanting peace, because it would ruin their efforts to denigrate the Basques, they do not want a peaceful Basque Country because they know that if the Basques achieve democratically and peacefully the process for selfdetermination, they are screwed.
ETA killed almost one thousand people and so you will blame the Basques for this? ETA is a monster that was created under Franquism, an extreme answer to an extreme condition. GAL however was created while Spain was already a “democratic” nation. You see the difference now?

Should I remember you who brought up ETA to the debate? So you stop blaming me for it. And if for you, "peace" means coexisting with ETA, no peace will ever be made. ETA must disappear. That is the only way "peace" can be made.

And even if ETA was the son of Franquism, it should have disappeared in 1975. But they obviously didn't. That was the moment when UK, USA, etc started putting ETA in their list of terrorist entities. And another difference among GAL and ETA is that GAL was immediately destroyed when discovered. ETA kept until nowadays, doesn't matter they kill or not. And I will never blame Basques for it, obviously. I know Basque people on my own, including pro-ETA people (seriously, in 21st Century) but I obviously know they are not responsible for ETA acts. As well as, derived from this statement, Spanish people is not responsible for Franco acts. Post-Franco Spain is highly decentralized. Basque provinces are even fiscally autonomous, while no FEDERAL STATE in Europe is.

Tell me why Kofi Annan was hence presiding the summit for peace talk in the Basque Country, if they dont care at all about us? What you say is so irrelevant, the UN does not have to side with someone, the UN will just approve if the Basques or the Catalans vote for independence, that's all.
Spain is just delaying the time when we will finally vote for selfdetermination, but you know I'm sure (even if you neglect it) that one day the Catalans and the Basques will have the possibility to vote for independence, like it or not. In 2014, 80% of the Catalans voted for independence (during the referendum held by the Government of Catalonia) will you keep not listening to those 80% of Catalans?

Kofi Annan can do whatever he wants. I don't want my country dealing with terrorists. And the UN will not just approve independence, you fool. Last example about this? Donetsk, Luhansk. They held independence referendums where secession won, and I haven't seen UN recognising it. FYI.

And that 80% number is because non-independentists boycotted the fake referendum. Independentism is currently about 45% more or less, and lower if that means leaving the EU. You see? The own Catalan people boycotted it, because they saw wrong. Independentists are largely ignoring non independent is ts, assuming they will agree with then aswell.

Pablo, this was a different time, and a different period. Nowadays Basques are different, yes the Basques used to be patriots (by patriots I mean supporting Spain or France). But this is no longer the case now, the reign of Franco greatly accelerated the will of freedom and independence. Now if you are nostalgic of the time when Spain was one, blame Franco.

That is the essence if Spain. Spain long ago stopped being one, to be exact, during Muslim invasion, and subsequent Christian kingdoms. But that diversity of peoples, is what makes us Spain. Spanish nation is not an ethnic nation, but a civic nation, based on our geographical natural divisions.

And about Navarre and such: I already knew before you told me about Roncalese. As well as I know there are six other dialectal forms, apart from the Batua. You sometimes expect us to be ignorant about you, but the fact is that we Spaniards also study our regional cultures. You might be obsessed with the idea of a Castilian Spain, but reality is not that way. And as well as you denounced one of your dialects is extinct, now I denounce one of Spanish LANGUAGES is moribund, Aragonese. And guess what? Politicians are busier trying to make Catalan official in Aragon (yet only spoken in a narrow strip) than even caring about the non official and forgotten Aragonese, once spoken by half the Aragon Crown. I know this is not related, but I wanted to denounce how Catalan and Basque nationalisms, mostly the former, often try to impose theirselves over smaller regionalisms, to expand their utopic nations. (See: Països Catalans; Euskal Herria).

And yes, I know Navarre has Basque roots. But Navarre is not exclusively Basque, also has romance roots. As well as Castilian language is highly influences by Basque, and originated next to Basque lands.

First electric submarine

Ah, electric is an important (and specific qualifier), but even then, still wrong. Stefan Drzewiecki made the first electric submarine (Polish) in 1884.

Autogyro (precursor of helicopter, so not technically an helicopter, but still invented by us): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogyro

Ah, a toy helicopter - this was Chinese.