The amount of victim blaming in this thread is outright amazing

+1 for hijacking the thread about hijacking

Then i ask you why fizzar banned his alt?

I have no idea. I also don't actually know whether the hijacking account was indeed Semice's alt; there's been conflicting claims and only Fizzer has any reasonable method to confirm.

Wrong they are still guests. The only one who has the right to decide what happens to the clan on a large scale is either fizzar or the guy who actually spent REAL money for the clan.

Not at all. The person who spent real money for the clan also has the power to transfer their rights. They're able to give someone else control over their clan service if they want to (as clearly outlined in the "Clan Managers" submodule), and that's how it even got to Colonel in the first place.

Because, the clan is worth money and only the buyer has the right to the clan because it's his money

When you purchase a clan, you're also purchasing the right to transfer your rights to use that clan. That's exactly what the Manager Rights module does. Fortunately, Fizzer doesn't destroy the clan you purchased the right to use when you relinquish your MR; instead, he lets someone else claim the service.

I'm not sure where your claims about the "right" are even coming from. Are you aware of some Terms of Service document I haven't run across? To the extent of my knowledge, there's no specific terms outlining "rights" in the context of MR transfer beyond what's listed on the "Manage and remove players" module- no contractual restrictions on what someone can/cannot do with their MR, so ultimately they have a right to use Manager Rights any way they see fit- it's very clearly spelled out.

Edited 5/19/2016 01:54:21

Hmm, i suppose in a roundabout way you are correct. But then there is ultimately no point in buying a clan if everyone and no one owns the clan.

Now i really want a separation between who owns the clan and who is simply a mod.

You should not have to give someone the clan just to have an extra mod.

There is a point. You're paying for a service that Fizzer provides, and now you have control over a clan page, icons, a forum, etc. Fizzer's also nice enough to let you transfer control over said service to other people, just in a weird way where everyone who has control over the service also has the ability to take away everyone else's control (or grant control to a new set of people).

It's only a very small minority of clans that has these "hijack" problems, and that's because they're under the impression that they can have their MR transfers and eat them too.

You should not have to give someone the clan just to have an extra mod.

That'd be the perfect solution. Right now, clan managers are forced to tightly control rights because the only options are no control and full control. I can't just give someone recruitment privileges or clan page editing privileges. It'd be great if we had a tiered management system.

Edited 5/19/2016 02:03:09

That'd be the perfect solution. Right now, clan managers are forced to tightly control rights because the only options are no control and full control. I can't just give someone recruitment privileges or clan page editing privileges. It'd be great if we had a tiered management system.

Now that is what you are actually supposed to use UserVoice for!

210 votes (#6): https://warlight.uservoice.com/forums/77051-warlight-features/suggestions/7085564-overhall-of-clan-system

Clan manager tiers is certainly something we’d like to add some day, but it’s not on our immediate roadmap.

(emphasis mine)

77 votes (#16): https://warlight.uservoice.com/forums/77051-warlight-features/suggestions/5885580-clan-manager-improvement

No official response

26 votes: https://warlight.uservoice.com/forums/77051-warlight-features/suggestions/7955508-add-a-hierarchical-clan-management-system

No official response

Edited 5/19/2016 02:19:23

Regardless i still think semice should be punished in some way.

This thread is pointless isn't it. Just report Semice, don't create a dedicated thread to try ban him. Anyway I think he already tarnished his reputation with the Warlight community with this incident.

Edited 5/19/2016 02:22:18

Let's dispel once and for all with this notion that Colonel didn't know what he was doing. Colonel knew exactly what he was doing. He was undertaking a systematic effort to transfer a set of significant privileges to Semice and let Semice do whatever he wanted with it.

Robo Rubio reference lololol
+2

By Warlight? He didn't violate Warlight policy.

By the community, for abusing community standards? Perhaps, pending an investigation and confirmation by Fizzer that Semice was indeed likely responsible.

"By the community"

Yep.

I consider doing something on the TLW end, but couldn't come up with anything I could do that wouldn't hurt the clan substantially more than it would hurt Semicedevine. Another organization- like Clan League 8- could also sanction Semice or TLW (really TLW in either case) but at that stage their sanctions would be ineffective as they'd:

a) Essentially cause TLW to become non-competitive and potentially withdraw from Clan League

b) Unfairly punish TLW for not taking some extremely inviable actions (we have a very small number of strategically competent players, and Semice is far ahead of the rest of the pack in that arena)

Promotion/Relegation League, etc., could perhaps take some actions. It's not going to be too harmful to impose some sort of consequences for behavior that hurts the community (although we have to be careful about how we approach it, because it could escalate into harassment and witch-hunts since the community is frankly ill-organized and ill-equipped to punish behavior).

That said, the only effective solution to the "hijacking" problem is for RP clan leaders to be responsible about their treatment of Manager Rights and to actually acknowledge the warning that's right there in front of them in the "Manage or remove players" module instead of thinking that they can transfer full Manager Rights and still be in full control.

Edited 5/19/2016 03:09:16

Still, he/she should be punished. Like perhaps banning the player from clans or any major games aswell as coin games? This of course would be hard to implement without fizzar.

Like perhaps banning the player from clans or any major games

That would entail kicking Semice out of TLW, which would again be punishing TLW much more than it would be punishing Semice.

coin games

Perhaps. Not sure if that would actually pose any sort of meaningful deterrent.

The reason I made this thread was because there isn't yet a WarLight policy against clan hijackings- and yes, they are hijackings IF the clan's membership recognises one member's authority over them as their leader.

In practice, MR do give the authority to remove you from the clan, however that does not make it alright.

For the sake of knyte, let's just examine the difference between scenarios so that he understands what went on during the hijack...

1st Scenario: A leader becomes unpopular with membership, and is removed in a popular coup (Vitrix is a clear example of this). This is not a hijack. It is a coup.

2nd Scenario: A person who is not the original creator of the clan is given manager rights whilst the creator is absent due to retiring etc. This is what happened to facilitate you becoming the recognised leader of The Lost Wolves. You are not the clan's creator. This is not a hijack either.

3rd Scenario: Someone creates an account for the sole purpose of misleading the leader to give them manager rights with the trust that they will only use them for the purpose of inviting people/removing and inviting player/editing the clan page. They then remove the recognised leader of the clan against the wishes of the membership, and take control. This is quite clearly a hijacking of a clan. It occured in the Falcons, it occured in the Wolves, it occured in RE and a few other clans. All perpetuated by the same person, who, according to you, is not to blame due to the fact that the leaders that were duped had the knowledge of the risks they were taking in trusting the person.

I warned you knyte. You are quite quickly losing respect.

Colonel transferred MR to Semice. In doing so- after having read those warnings, he gave Semice license to do whatever he wanted to do with MR. At no point did Colonel even go for an informal agreement about what Semice could do with MR. He made Semice a full owner of his clan, essentially.

Warlight very, very explicitly outlines that Colonel knowingly and willingly consented for Semice to do everything he did- he gave Semice the power to add/remove managers, add/remove members, change the clan page, etc.- this was even highlighted by the "Manage or remove players" module twice in a sentence that specifically begins with "WARNING:"

And now he's complaining because Semice used MR in a way that was perfectly within the bounds of what Colonel had agreed to.

It is quite clear in my conversation with Semice and the documents which outline the power and responsibility of every single clan member that he should not use MR in a manner detrimental to Royal Entente's structure and stability.

Why shouldn't TLW be punished for the actions of one of their members?

Wait. So you actually gave semice power, and knew it was semice? *facepalm* That's about the dumbest thing you can possibly do as a clan leader.

What Knyte is stating, and what you are clearly missing at this point is this: you gave him said power despite lacking any real reason to do so. As such, while Semice is indeed a jerk, and we are not denying that, it was perfectly Legal for him to act as such. What both me and knyte have been doing on this thread is

a. Expose the fact that the handing out of MR in such a manner is your own actions, and obviously increases the possibility of a hijacking radically, and as such is entirely your own fault. In our current TLW structure, the only person to hold MR is Knyte, and All other gov't members basically are there to yell at him in case if he screws up and provide other input. Something that any clan can probably handle where a trusted few(prefferably 1) actually has MR, and all other members of the gov't basically act as advisors.

b. that Semice while being a jerk, TLW atm lacks any plausible way to punish him without hurting ourselves more, which is beyond counterproductive. As such we are just issuing an ultimatum to him to not do it again.

2nd Scenario: A person who is not the original creator of the clan is given manager rights whilst the creator is absent due to retiring etc. This is what happened to facilitate you becoming the recognised leader of The Lost Wolves. You are not the clan's creator. This is not a hijack either.
That's actually false, knyte rose during a hijack that turned into a popular coup. This occured due to way too many people having MR allowing for propulsion to gain MR from Terre who got it from Relm(the leader at the time), and transfer it to knyte. Following that, knyte implemented some radical changes to the clan structure, and rebooted intraclan activity a bit, and basically has become a popular dictator.

So, you'r not going to punish him simply because he's a good player?

Sounds pathetic.

More like he's the best player in the clan by far, and generally speaking TLW doesn't punish long-time members. I mean we have former hijackers of the clan quite literally still in it(Semice, Relm, Heather).

We also don't generally kick people, or atleast haven't done so in the past. Knyte's post-coup mass inactive purge was probably the largest in clan history. Generally speaking, most kicks are parts of inactive purges. As such it would go against clan history to kick someone for doing something other than going inactive.

Lastly, he's also part of the gov't, and happens to be kinda of important in terms of assisting knyte with things like CL rosters, and as such removing such a valuable member would be completely counterproductive for the clan. Removal of a valuable player and gov't member for a few reputation points doesn't sound like a fair trade.