whereas under yours or Ox's 2 hijackings occurred and I wasn't even there at all

Under mine? There was only Achilles. In any case, I had no control over who had MR- that fell entirely to Kazuki. That's exactly why I left CORP to run Optimum and now TLW- here my leadership is not compromised by people who have much more power than they should.

explain me again why you minimize Semice's action here?

I don't- he's obviously being a dick and taking advantage of the 11-year-olds who throw away their parents' money on RP clans here. I'm just tired of the RP clan managers blaming their failures on everything but their poor leadership and willfully failing to understand what a transfer of Manager Rights is.

His actions aren't in the right, but he should not be banned for them because ultimately someone else decided that he was fit to control a clan. It's not even some sort of malicious action- he just misled them about what he would do with MR, but that doesn't mean it's not their responsibility to be skeptical of anyone that asks for MR.

Ultimately, this is just this big perpetual failure in the RP leadership community that is literally the easiest thing to avoid. And you don't move forward by blaming the people you gave MR to. The way I see it, once you transfer MR to someone, you're completely fine with anything they do with MR- and they're completely free to use MR any way they want to, unless you place some explicit, binding, and enforceable conditions.

It doesn't make sense to ban Semice for using MR the way he wanted to. Colonel decided to give him MR knowing full well what the transfer entailed, and now he can't just whine about it because Semice used them in a way Colonel didn't want him to. A "hijack" is just a stupid word for a transfer of power gone wrong.

Edited 5/19/2016 00:27:59

OOOooh, i think vitriol thinks he's superior. How cute.

No, I'm just opposing a groundless and irresponsible ban against a member of The Lost Wolves.

"A "hijack" is just a stupid word for a transfer of power gone wrong."

Actually, i find it fairly accurate.

The way i see it the only one who is at fault is semice. Stupidity is no excuse to curb the blame away from the guy who did the damage.

Yeah it was pretty stupid to give him power. But do you really expect such things not to happen? It happens with smart owners, and to dangerously trustworthy owners.

"No, I'm just opposing a groundless and irresponsible ban against a member of The Lost Wolves."

So you don't want to ban him because he's a member of your clan? -_-


Groundless? No. Irresponsible? No

What was groundless and irresponsible was giving him ownership.

That does not mean however that his actions do not warrant a ban against him.

Colonel transferred MR to Semice. In doing so- after having read those warnings, he gave Semice license to do whatever he wanted to do with MR. At no point did Colonel even go for an informal agreement about what Semice could do with MR. He made Semice a full owner of his clan, essentially.

Warlight very, very explicitly outlines that Colonel knowingly and willingly consented for Semice to do everything he did- he gave Semice the power to add/remove managers, add/remove members, change the clan page, etc.- this was even highlighted by the "Manage or remove players" module twice in a sentence that specifically begins with "WARNING:"

And now he's complaining because Semice used MR in a way that was perfectly within the bounds of what Colonel had agreed to.

Was Semice abusive? Sure. Were Semice's actions at least morally questionable? Of course.

But should Semice be punished for this by Fizzer? Nope. Warlight ban policy should be based on concrete rules, not vague notions of moral behavior. Colonel has no grounds here to pursue a ban.

So you don't want to ban him because he's a member of your clan? -_-

No. But I'm in charge of The Lost Wolves, and personally I think it's a responsibility of clan management to always side with your members when they need you to. But those aren't the grounds for my argument here, and really my motives have no bearing on whether or not my claims are true.

Edited 5/19/2016 00:45:47

"He made Semice a full owner of his clan, essentially."

Power does not make you an owner.


"And now he's complaining because Semice used MR in a way that was perfectly within the bounds of what Colonel had agreed to."


I'm uncertain as to what colonel agreed to exactly, but it's clear that the only thing he intended was an extra mod. This is a moral debate dude, not a legal one.

"But should Semice be punished for this by Fizzer? Nope. Warlight ban policy should be based on concrete rules, not vague notions of moral behavior. Colonel has no grounds here to pursue a ban."

Semice destroyed a clan and essentially stole it. This is purely unacceptable behavior in a community whether you like it or not. Can i be abusive on the forums? Nope, you know why? Because it upsets people and the community. You just cannot have people doing whatever they like and ruining warlight for other people.

You know guys, If you think a person has violated Warlight policy, you should report that said person. I think a thread devoted to whether or not we should ban someone is just blows the issue out of proportion. If the player has not violated any sort of policy, then there is no point in trying to get the person banned.

Edited 5/19/2016 00:53:28

Power does not make you an owner.

According to Warlight:

Clan managers can do anything you can do - they can add/remove players, set titles, add/remove managers, etc.

WARNING: Be sure to only set players as a manager if you trust them 100%. Since they can do anything, they could even remove you from the clan if they wanted to take control.

Under these terms, Colonel knowingly transferred to Semice the power to:

- "do anything" Colonel could do

- "add/remove players"

- "set titles"

- "add/remove managers," including Colonel himself

- "do anything"

- "even remove you [Colonel] from the clan if they wanted to take control"

Let's dispel once and for all with this fiction that Colonel didn't know what he was doing. Colonel knew exactly what he was doing. He was undertaking a systematic effort to transfer a set of significant privileges to Semice and let Semice do whatever he wanted with it.

And Semice chose to exercise these privileges- just not in a way that Colonel liked.

Colonel has no recourse here. This wasn't theft. Colonel's straight-up just trying to get Semice banned because of his own poor decision-making.

The moment you give Manager Rights to someone- unless you're placing them under some sort of binding contractual obligation- you're consenting to anything they could do with Manager Rights. It's spelled out right in the "Clan Managers" submodule, right where you go to transfer Manager Rights.

If the player has not violated any sort of policy, then there is no point in trying to get the person banned.

Exactly. Warlight bans are based on Warlight policy, not what Colonel or some random MSF member thinks is "moral."

Edited 5/19/2016 02:24:48

Analogous situation: Yesterday, I let Colonel join The Lost Wolves, knowingly giving him the ability to post (non-removable) posts in our Clan Forum. He's made at least two forum posts that I don't like and think are abusive, misleading, inflammatory, and immoral.

But he just simply exercised privileges that I gave him. Not in violation of Warlight policy in any way.

And if I thought it was, there's a "Report" button I could hit and fill with all relevant information, screenshots, and links.

Making a Uservoice to get someone banned and openly acknowledging that you're appealing to your notion of morality rather than to concretely-defined Warlight policy is just one way of saying you're not responsible and should not be in any leadership position until you learn to accept the consequences for your own decisions.

"The moment you give Manager Rights to someone- unless you're placing them under some sort of binding contractual obligation- you're consenting to anything they could do with Manager Rights. It's spelled out right in the "Clan Managers" submodule, right where you go to transfer Manager Rights."

First off, when your giving someone else power like that it's legally a joint leadership.
Because of that if semice wanted to say empty the clan out like an ass he would have the power to do so, but not necessarily the right. As he would not own the clan.

@Knyte

I would appreciate it if you stuck to an account and did not use your alt aswell.

First off, when your giving someone else power like that it's legally a joint leadership.

It's a joint leadership where you openly grant them the ability to seize full control at any given point in time.

Warlight spells it out: they can "even remove you from the clan if they wanted to take control." You're knowingly consenting to that the moment you give someone Manager Rights.

@madking: I'm currently active on both. Sorry if it's confusing. :P

Edited 5/19/2016 01:05:55

And actually it is your right to remove his comments if you find them offensive as you in your own words "own" the clan.

Just as Fizzar has the right to to remove this comment. He owns warlight and i'm merely a guest.

"Warlight spells it out: they can "even remove you from the clan if they wanted to take control." You're knowingly consenting to that the moment you give someone Manager Rights."

Exactly! Your giving them power, but they do not own the clan as there would be multiple leaders.

What it comes down to is regardless of what power you give him, the guy who bought the clan owns the clan legally in real life.

And actually it is your right to remove his comments if you find them offensive as you in your own words "own" the clan.

There's no mechanism for me to remove those comments. That's not a service Warlight provides, and it's not a service I can expect to get as it was never expressly required of Warlight under any terms.

So the moment I add someone to the clan, I give them the ability to make posts/comments on our Clan Forum that I can't remove. Simple as that.

As far as ownership goes, that's not simple at all. Given Fizzer's policy of restoring clans to the original purchaser, I believe that clans are simply services Warlight provides and ultimately are always (legally) owned by Fizzer. People can just transfer control.

Exactly! Your giving them power, but they do not own the clan as there would be multiple leaders.

The owner of the clan is Fizzer- hence his ability to transfer control to people if he wants to. Clans are services, not products; you're really purchasing a subforum on Warlight and some other digital services. And you're transferring your rights/controls over that service to anyone with MR.

Edited 5/19/2016 01:12:47

"The owner of the clan is Fizzer- hence his ability to transfer control to people if he wants to. Clans are services, not products; you're really purchasing a subforum on Warlight and some other digital services. And you're transferring your rights/controls over that service to anyone with MR. "

Then what was this about semice owning the clan when he was given MR?

And i guess your technically right no one owns the clan but Fizzar.

But the guy who bought it technically has the rights to its use. Not semice.

Then what was this about semice owning the clan when he was given MR?

Semice was in control and had the rights to the service the Fizzer was providing.

Transferring MR is directly how you transfer control to someone else. Under Fizzer's terms, he transfers this control back to the original purchaser when no one else is in control, but otherwise the people with Manager Rights are exactly the ones with rights to its use.

It's not Semice's fault that Colonel gave him those rights and the ability to control aspects of the clan, and he's not liable in any way whatsoever for using them in a way that Colonel didn't want him to.

Colonel's not even the original purchaser of the clan and himself gained control through a transfer of Manager Rights.

Edited 5/19/2016 01:38:25

Then i ask you why fizzar banned his alt?

"Manager Rights are exactly the ones with rights to its use."

Wrong they are still guests. The only one who has the right to decide what happens to the clan on a large scale is either fizzar or the guy who actually spent REAL money for the clan.

It's literally legally only fizzars or the guy's choice that matters.

Because, the clan is worth money and only the buyer has the right to the clan because it's his money. Permission to kick and abuse the clan does not make you the leader.

"Colonel's not even the original purchaser of the clan and himself gained control through a transfer of Manager Rights."

Of course he's not the original "owner", but again he does not own the clan and did not change the clan in any harmful or major way.

He has power, but not the right.