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WarLight AI Challenge: 3/21/2014 20:59:35


zach 
Level 56
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There are some sites that let you write/compile code online, like http://www.jdoodle.com/ or https://ideone.com/

It's not the most convenient way to program, but it's better than nothing.
WarLight AI Challenge: 3/21/2014 21:07:37


125ch209 
Level 58
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I came up with a solution to the deployment/update problem, but for some reason, it makes my bot freeze in the first 5-10 turns. At first, the bot does fine using troops on the same turn it deploys them. Then it just stops everything--deploying and moving--for the rest of the game. When I check the output under "go place_armies 2000" and "go attack/transfer 2000", it says:
Maximum number of idle moves returned: skipping move (let bot return 'No moves' instead of nothing)


I had that same problem, i thought it was because my bot was taking to long to calculate the deploying armies, but then after a successful update (unrelated to the issue), all went back to normal... so i don't know how it got fixed but i don't think it is because the bot wasn't quick enough
WarLight AI Challenge: 3/21/2014 21:16:57


{rp} Julius Caesar 
Level 46
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yeah but I dont wanna from scratch make a bot, I wanted to just edit the pre packaged bot into a murder machine. huh... eh maybe ill make an attempt at just creating a bot, I have no clue what framework i should ue or what the hell it does, cudos to you fizz, this is insanley hard.
WarLight AI Challenge: 3/27/2014 02:14:59


Motocross5800 
Level 50
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what program do i use to make a bot in C or C++? sorry, i am new to this stuff.
WarLight AI Challenge: 3/27/2014 02:33:09


Odin 
Level 60
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I'm not really a C or C++ expert but I've heard that Visual Studio by Microsoft is very good for those languages.
WarLight AI Challenge: 3/28/2014 00:42:46

RvW 
Level 54
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Motocross:

Sounds like you need to learn how to program first. Maybe it'd be best to Google a C programming tutorial for Windows / Linux / whatever you use. Chances are it will contain a recommendation (and download link) for an editor. As an extra benefit, all screens, menu options and shortcuts mentioned in the tutorial will match perfectly.
WarLight AI Challenge: 3/30/2014 07:08:22

Good Kid 
Level 56
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"If I knew how to write an AI that were on par with top human warlight players, I would be a millionaire, probably even a billionaire. It's much more complex a task than what you would think."

Millionaire, maybe, bullionaire, no. It wouldn't be "that" hard. Bots can beat legit players in virtually every game in existence.

In 1997 Deep Blue beat Kasparov at Chess, computers today are a lot more powerful than they were 17 years ago, the top chess bots today are significantly better than the top human players.
WarLight AI Challenge: 3/30/2014 08:06:59


professor dead piggy 
Level 59
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Didn't IBM make Deep Blue, and aren't IBM billionaires?

YMCM could write pseudo code that would be top 10. Warlight gets quite formulaic and follows rules and a strategic 1v1 is like a big complicated system that im sure one could model. Teaching it to guess what was happening behind the fog would be the hardest but that's not necessary to beat most top 10 players.

Edited 3/30/2014 08:08:11
WarLight AI Challenge: 3/30/2014 10:40:47


Green 
Level 56
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I would love to see that top 10 beating pseudocode Piggy, perhaps I could learn something.
WarLight AI Challenge: 3/30/2014 14:42:24


Odin 
Level 60
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If I knew how to write an AI that were on par with top human warlight players, I would be a millionaire, probably even a billionaire. It's much more complex a task than what you would think.

That aside, writing an AI that can beat other AI's is much easier.


Well, my comment was about Warlight, not about chess, nor about some other random game. Chess and Warlight aren't comparable because Warlight's complexity is exponentially higher than that of chess. This is especially obvious in the endgame of chess, where a computer can often calculate the objectively best move within seconds.

If you want to make software that is on par with top human Warlight players (on all maps and settings, not just a single one), you have the following options: 1) Hard-code every possible board situation into your program, 2) Make the program think holistically, like a human being, and 3) Try to imitate human-like thinking in your program.

1) Is impossible because there are billions over billions of game situations that could arise. Hard-coding all of them is not feasible. And you'd have to do it again for every new map and setting.

2) Nobody in the world has been successful in this yet despite numerous efforts.

3) I won't say it's impossible to imitate human thinking to a degree, but making code that could beat a top player at Warlight by merely imitating would be very difficult, with no guarantee of success. There are numerous challenging taks, such as estimating enemy income and activity, or evaluating random game positions. Also, the human player could exploit knowledge of the AI's style and play in a way that is extremely effective against it. Making the AI to react to that in a sensible way is very difficult.

All in all, my prediction has held well until now. The top player of the AI ladder admits that his current bot could probably not fight on par with even a mediocre WL player. Even on such a simple map as Small Earth. Still, it has no trouble beating other AI's.
WarLight AI Challenge: 3/30/2014 16:37:13


Ⓖ. Ⓐrun 
Level 57
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I think the key to programming the best bot possible is to make net income the priority - to only break/take bonuses that give you the best income advantage possible over your enemy. Then, code in any exceptions to that rule (combatting the stack instead of pursuing short term advantage) and beasssst over everyone :)
WarLight AI Challenge: 3/31/2014 00:52:48

RvW 
Level 54
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Good Kid wrote:

Millionaire, maybe, bullionaire, no. It wouldn't be "that" hard. Bots can beat legit players in virtually every game in existence.

That highly depends on the complexity of the game:

  • Writing an unbeatable tic-tac-toe bot should be an exercise roughly at high school level. A graphics calculator has plenty storage and compute power to run the bot (if written properly; a regular computer could still churn through an inefficient bot in real time).
  • Writing a bot which plays Yahtzee optimally (which still cannot guarantee victory, due to the influence of random chance) is definitely university level (and either each move will take minutes/hours to calculate, or pre-computing the data to quickly decide the best move will take minutes/hours). This can still be done by a single person on a regular computer.
  • Writing a bot which plays chess optimally is not a solved problem. Deep Blue beat Kasparov, but it is certainly possible (in theory) to create an even better bot. Note this requires a team of professionals and a supercomputer to run all the calculations.
  • Writing a bot which plays go / weiqi acceptably is an unsolved problem as well. It's been a while since I read up on progress, but last time I checked, mediocre human players had a fair chance playing against the world's best go bot.

Have a look at this chart http://xkcd.com/1002/ if you really believe computers can beat humans in "virtually every game in existence".

Good Kid wrote:

In 1997 Deep Blue beat Kasparov at Chess, computers today are a lot more powerful than they were 17 years ago, the top chess bots today are significantly better than the top human players.

I don't have actual data, but the computer on my desk is still dwarfed by 1997's supercomputers. I wouldn't be surprised if Grandmasters can still routinely beat the best commercially available chess bots.


dead piggy wrote:

Didn't IBM make Deep Blue, and aren't IBM billionaires?

IBM "was a billionaire" way before they created Deep Blue. Having that much money gave them the means to create Deep Blue, not the other way around. While the publicity around and the research (partly reusable on other projects) behind Deep Blue undoubtedly made them some money, I strongly doubt they earned a billion dollar out of it (much less made a billion dollar profit; building Deep Blue must've been expensive).

Edited 3/31/2014 00:55:51
WarLight AI Challenge: 3/31/2014 05:28:58


Norman 
Level 58
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Hey, interesting chart @RvW.

Before anyone is looking again for the perfect warlight playing bot I have to disappoint. Warlight is unsolvable, meaning that there will never be an algorithm showing you the perfect move. This can be proven by creating a counterexample: Let's say in picking stage player A is running his 'perfect move' algorithm. Then player B can run the same 'perfect move' algorithm and put the result into his 'perfect counter' algorithm. That way player A will have a disadvantage after picks (not just by the counter but by revealing all his starting spots) so by definition he didn't play the 'perfect move'.

In games like classic risk or chess you can look for your perfect move.
WarLight AI Challenge: 3/31/2014 06:08:23


professor dead piggy 
Level 59
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The best commercially available chess bots are better than grandmasters and have been for a long time now.

I wasn't saying that deep blue was worth a billion dollars. Having the incredibly smart software and hardware engineers necessary to build deep blue earned them a billion dollars. And after that they decided to build deep blue. Odin wasn't saying that a warlight AI would be worth a lot of money he was saying that the skills to do it would be worth a lot of money.
WarLight AI Challenge: 3/31/2014 16:23:27


Hitchslap
Level 56
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Before anyone is looking again for the perfect warlight playing bot I have to disappoint. Warlight is unsolvable, meaning that there will never be an algorithm showing you the perfect move. This can be proven by creating a counterexample: Let's say in picking stage player A is running his 'perfect move' algorithm. Then player B can run the same 'perfect move' algorithm and put the result into his 'perfect counter' algorithm. That way player A will have a disadvantage after picks (not just by the counter but by revealing all his starting spots) so by definition he didn't play the 'perfect move'.


the only thing right about this is that there is no perfect moves. however there is a perfect strategy in theory, wich would consist of mixed & balanced moves. For example, for a given starting map, the perfect strategy could be something like:
-using 50% of the time the "set of picks A"
-using 30% of the time the "set of picks B"
-using 20% of the time the "set of picks C"

And this is a picking strategy, perfectly balanced, so that there is no way the opponent can counter you efficiently. So no, warlight is not unsolvable, any game with a limited number of player and a limited number of possible moves is solvable

Edited 3/31/2014 16:28:30
WarLight AI Challenge: 3/31/2014 17:14:59


zach 
Level 56
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Hobbit, I think you're describing an optimal strategy, not a perfect strategy. There's an important difference between the two.
WarLight AI Challenge: 3/31/2014 17:53:24


ps 
Level 61
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following perfect strategies can often lead you into traps when you're playing against human pros.
WarLight AI Challenge: 3/31/2014 17:56:30


Hitchslap
Level 56
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yeah i meant optimal strategy, a perfect strategy would be the best strategy to adopt knowing all opponent moves, so it isn't really relevant. My point was that the so called "proof" that warlight is unsolvable isn't a proof at all
WarLight AI Challenge: 3/31/2014 17:59:40


Hitchslap
Level 56
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following perfect strategies can often lead you into traps when you're playing against human pros


this is a non-sens, and you assume that we know the optimal strategy for warlight, wich is far from being the case.
WarLight AI Challenge: 3/31/2014 18:13:54


ps 
Level 61
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well, there are some common sense formulas atleast. but inevitably it depends on being able to predict the opponents moves on crucial points.
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