Where is the game link?

40 minutes of waiting. Lukasz is going to rest, he cancelled his orders, probably doesnt want to got cheated by game administration that would look up his fight strategy.

warlight.net/MultiPlayer.aspx?GameID=1347902

Auto distro - the great leveler ... That's my main beef with the 1v1 ladder is that the game is often decided in turn 0...

Devil, why would that be a problem though? It means the superior player is more likely to win thanks to superior selections. In auto a player can win solely thanks to the luck of the draw in distribution.

I don't know about you but I'd much rather win by skill than luck.

Because it emphasizes strategic skill at the expense of skill in tactics, and because it leads to short and uninteresting games where the outcome is almost inevitable from the start unless people are tremendously unlucky or make glaring errors. I'm not saying it's not a valid test of people's skill, I just dislike the nature of the games that result, as a personal choice.

I can understand that... that first turn does have significantly more importance than every other turn thereafter. At the same time, I am not sure of any better solution as random is too arbitrary and can easily favor a lesser player and give them an undeserved win.

Yeah there really isn't an easy solution to it other than to have variety in the ladders such as what was already added via the seasonal ladders. There was a big discussion about the bloated importance of turn 0 when the ladders were first beginning, and the best I could come up with was to capture stats for each bonus of how likely a player that got that bonus was to come up with the victory, and then there could be a weighted auto distribution where it would pick territories for the players but try and weight them evenly based on the stats. It would work, but it would be complicated and is thus likely never to happen.

Yea, and the problem with such a situation would be two-fold.

First, you would essentially have to eliminate or limit wastelands as they would interfere with such calculations. (and that is ignoring the impact of starting point within bonuses which obviously impacts the viability of the bonus)

Second, having such a calculated approach would make it possible for a observant player to be aware of his opponent's starting positions based on his own locations.

sadly, the best solution would be the chess solution.. having fixed locations for everything.. and like chess, better strategies would develop and be implemented regularly.

And that would take all of the fun out of the game.

The wastelands would have to be distributed to places where players weren't started, that's easy enough. The process of discovery of where those wastelands were would spice the game up quite a bit I think, lending an extra importance to scouting.

As to your other point about preknowledge of starting spots, that's true although I think there are enough bonuses out there that there would always be a question (hmm he's either here or here or here) whereas with the manual pick system players often gain hard intel about people's starting location, so I think it would actually lessen a preexisting problem, not exacerbate it.

As to handing games here and there to players of lesser skill, I don't see that as a problem - it would please them and keep them interested in playing, and over time the luck would average out in any event and the stronger players would find themselves on top of the ladder just like usual ... Still and all, it's just pleasing conjecture, I doubt the idea will ever gain enough traction to fly.

Under your system the likelihood of losing due primarily to poor staring position would be minimized if not outright eliminated so your last point is moot.

Would certainly be an interesting endeavor though I don't know whether it would be worth the significant effort involved

Richard, could you clarify something you said earlier?

"In auto a player can win solely thanks to the luck of the draw in distribution. I don't know about you but I'd much rather win by skill than luck."

The question is that is there any luck involved with doing a manual distribution to you? It sounds like you were saying that manual does not involve luck. Is that a correct assumption or did I look too much into your earlier comment?

I don't know what Richard meant, but with Manual it is possible to thoroughly reduce and often eliminate luck as a factor in starting positions. While it may seem that one person getting first pick of the "best" starting location is a matter of luck, good skill on the part of the other player with counterpicks makes that into a poor choice, and balance is restored purely by skill.

All six picks are important, and using them correctly takes a huge amount of skill. It may not be tactical skill, which I think is what devil is interested in mostly, but it can be a meta version of tactical skill, in understanding how the board would play out from various starting positions, and knowing which start combinations favor which players.

SGV, I don't see there being luck involved in a manual distribution beyond who gets first pick and even that is debatable.

Manual allows the player near full control and on a good map should allow for strategic positioning and the ability to counter/defend opponents positioning.

With random you may get stuck with bad bonuses or be surrounded by wastelands and doomed from the start. That would never happen through manual... you will only start in positions that you feel are beneficial and tactically important.

Thank you for clearing that up. I can see some of your point and I will agree with you that the player does get to pick what they believe will be best for them instead of it being random.

I will say that my opinion on Manual is that there is two parts to the luck, who gets first pick and where did they pick. If two people picked the same area, the player with first pick will likely have a small advantage when the game begins. Though, any advantage given there is most likely less that the advantage the server might give on auto.

(I will say that auto is fun for me as I must learn how to defend different areas that I might not normally choose)

Another suspenseful (and potentially "luck based") part of manual distribution is which "good" picks a player makesin a starting area. I generally like to group my picks 1-2, 3-4, 5-6. If I see an area (2 starting territories) I like, I have to assume my opponent will see it as well. So which do I pick 1, and which 2? Just have to guess and hope for the best.

I didnt really read Your posts, but I guess they are about auto/manual distribution.

If it goes about my oponion about it, I believe auto distributin is the only way of actually playing the game. In manual distribution games are won before they are even started. In auto distribution You got spots and You have to figure out what to do about them. You have to think while the game is going on, NOT before the game starts.

This is that simple and I dont understand what are You discussing about.



And about my match with Heyhuehei - he still didnt move.

Of course some games end up in the beggining. They are defined by the positions EITHER on manual or auto games.
In manual you are responsible for your own luck, and if you think you are loosing in the beggining you are worse than your opponent, because if he knows more about picking he also probably know more about everything else.
There are a few players that play with me that can counter my picks effectively, because I very rarely have the feeling that i lost in the beggining. I know all possible combinations and always expect my opponent being where i dont want him to, and that is part of the complexity of the game. So if you know all about picking, luck has very little importance at early stages.
Luck will play a lot in all auto-distibution, and just noobs that likes to gamble with the coin flip to get the edge will like that.