Yo Z-Dog:

'European cultures' (including the US) are so infused with Christian culture that to deny Christianity would be to deny the basis of so much of our morals, laws, ways of thinking, ways of feeling.

- Qi, "Christianity in America," Seattle: Warlight Inc., 2013.

Is Christianity the cause of the morals, laws, and ways of thinking? Or is it shaped by the societies in which it exists? Both are true, of course, but to what degree?

Qi: Improve your reading skills. I said I went through a transition period of agnostic/athiestic before I confirmed my athiesm at the age of 24. I am not agnostic now but I am surely athiest.

Actually, I was a very naughty boy when I was growing up under the influence of the church. I think I became a more responsible person during my early 20s when I had abandoned religion and could decide for myself what was right.

You also talk of proof. Well, the onus of proof is on Christianity and the other religions. We have only thw word of fellow humans who as we know can lie or just get things wrong or muddled.

spend an eternity in damnation and do ...
or spend an eternity with fully clothed angels and don't do ...

your choice *evil laugh*

Sex is not the epitome of a fulfilled life Warlightvet-boy

what is?

Yes. You went through a transition. Then you said you cannot prove the non-existence of gods. If atheism is based on superior logic, reasoning, and wisdom, and you have no proof for the non-existence of any gods, then I suppose your atheism merely a belief system (or religion), not a science. If it is without proof and absolute certainty, why not call it agnosticism? Isn't agnosticism uncertainty?

It's all about probability.
While you have multiple options it doesn't always have to mean all options are equally probable to happen.
So while I can not discredit belief in a god (in which the description of god is undefined) we can actually discredit to a high degree the probability if there is such a god as is taught us in Judeo-Christian and Islamic texts and religios cult.

Going back to the ancient greeks again we already see strong argument in this way:

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to

Then he is not omnipotent.



If he is able, but not willing

Then he is malevolent.



If he is both able and willing

Then whence cometh evil?



If he is neither able nor willing

Then why call him God?

Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)

Qi, if it's all about certainty then you are forced into solipsism. (I even find "I think therefore I am" to be a little presumptuous. It should be "thought is occurring, therefore something is".)

As Aranka mindlessly quotes, you can prove that God cannot exist by definition. So saying "God does not exist" is a belief to the same degree that "I exist" is a belief.

I'd also like to note that I can happily concede that God exists, and it would not change a single one of my other philosophical standpoints. I thoroughly believe that "God exists" is a philosophical cul-de-sac. The only relevant conclusion that can be derived therefrom is that free will does not exist - but we know that anyway, don't we?

The leap from theism to any single religion is undoable and unjustifiable. To get from "God exists" to "I should attend church on Sunday", in a logical and coherent way, is impossible. The existence or non-existence of God has absolutely no tangible outcome.


It always helps to think in terms of individual actions when contemplating an argument. The worth of an argument is relative to its effect. It also sharpens your focus, which is evidently difficult for a lot of you. Let digressions be digressions and asides be asides and let's not argue for the sake of talking. To do so denigrates the concept of philosophy.

Nice quote Aranka!

Qi: Do you believe in fire breething dragons? I cannot disprove their existance but then I don't have to. The burden of proof is on the believer. Let them prove it!

I must say life would be fun with dragons and unicorns around even though they maybe dangerous. Unfortunatley, there is no proof of their existance and so they remain in our imaginations just as should whatever god/s you may conjure up in your minds.

I am neither a theist nor an atheist. So I see no need to prove anything. But, if atheists think they are superior beings for their logic, reasoning, and science, then why not use this logic, reasoning, and science to some effect?

Those lowly Christians who lack logic, reasoning, and science merely believe. Yet, the superior beings also only believe. Both merely have opinions. Where is the logic, reasoning, and science if we are only able to remain at the level of opinions?

The only difference is that theists may appear naive when stating their opinions as facts and oppressive if they limit the freedoms of non-believers; while atheists may appear arrogant or pretentious when criticizing theists and hypocritical for denying others the right to have an opinion/belief when they themselves are no better.

"The existence or non-existence of God has absolutely no tangible outcome."

Those lowly Christians who lack logic, reasoning, and science merely believe. Yet, the superior beings also only believe. Both merely have opinions. Where is the logic, reasoning, and science if we are only able to remain at the level of opinions?

What's worse is when they are humanists, which really is a belief system no better than religion. Dawkins infuriates me with his dismissal of religious values and then hypocritically following it up with the baseless, wishy-washy bullshit of humanism. At those times I don't consider him to be any better than a theist.

Also, congratulations on figuring out that God doesn't exist, Wordsworth & Aranka. You did it. Now, how many times do you need to keep rehearsing the same (borrowed) arguments with yourselves? It's time to move on.

"Without hope, we have nothing." That's the whole basis of religion at its simplest, or at least what I've seen (even though no one religious will admit it to me). It's a hope that we are not alone, and that there is something greater than us, whose life is unending. Thing about it: at His finest, He is everything we strive to be. At His lowest, He's everything we are.

*cough* I looovvveeeee the Church...

what is important on christianity in america ?
i pretty much figured religion was an individual choice in almost all countries ...

Constitution, Declaration of Independence,and the Preamble all mention God. LEGAL DOCUMENTS THAT GOVERN THE COUNTRY... that's all c:

I posted awhile a ago in respond to warlightvet troll question but that did not show.

Anyways I agree with this guy.

I believe in God (as I said I left the Catholic church because I don't believe in their interpretations of Christianity/the bible), but I do not believe in destiny. I think that many things happen for a reason, but that our path is not predetermined. Fate may bring two people together, for example, but you choose how to act on that opportunity.

I'm not sure how people that believe the opposite (that God effects all things) can survive. If so, how do you justify tragedies occurring? God wanted those people to die? God is testing us and we failed? Those same people use religion as a crutch (god made me kill these people, etc). I hold people accountable for their actions as we all have choices to make.

Ironheart, I agree with that guy too. :)

I'm going to throw my thoughts in this conversation for a bit. Qi, your recurring argument has been that "While Atheists claim to have superior intellect, they have not disproved the existence of a God to theists." I feel like you're using this a bit out of context and/or not understanding the reason there has not been a widespread revelation among theists.

Using Christianity as the example, the fundamental principle in most religions is faith. Faith that regardless of the fact that there is no tangible proof of the existence of a god, one should still blindly believe it exists. So therefore, no amount of tangible evidence garnered by scientific research and experimentation will affect that core value of faith. When one believes in something that cannot be proven, proof would understandably bear no relevance in said matter.

I just think the argument of "Christians are still Christians so Atheists have failed" is one tat is flawed. Nonetheless, I'm amused and intrigued by this thread and I hope to see it continue at the rate that it has been.

Good luck and godspeed. c;

Blargh, *that is flawed.