@pulsey - because gnuffone is not a native speaker and simply does not know english well enough. He doesn't do it because of lazyness or whim..

@gnuffone - nobody will stop you from playing with alts, as we all know gladiators and inferno are not the only ones you have, but for the sake of a good competition, i do believe that in such an event like nations cup, where you want to evaluate TEAMS of different regions, each player in the team should be allowed to play only ONE tournament. that way the teams will HAVE to have many good players, and not one star, who plays all games, and/or dictates the moves to his teammates.

@dunga - i do believe the tournaments should be round robins to eliminate luck factor.. and to prevent some of the best teams to clash and be eliminated early on..

@Roo
Its impossible to make each player play only 1, i dont know if its possible to limit even to 2, 3 would be the correct call if there were any restrictions. Alternates were not allowed, and we even had complainings about it.
And round robins are not possible, since when you start loosing, the interest decline and teams left out the tournament. So it will be single round elimination. Maybe we can finish the tournament before the year ends.
And to avoid big teams clashing we will put them SEEDS, which will be placed in the bracket system and will be teams awaiting other results or playing weaker teams. It will be done similarly to the previous Nations Cup, or any seed tournament.

Gnuffone, you are allowed to puppet others and you are free to do it if you want to, but joining with alts is unfair in my opinion because the main point of this is to play as a team and not alone...

Personally I think we should limit the amount of games an individual can play.

Normally if the division of players is A>B>C>D>E>F>G>H, you would expect a team of ABCD to always beat EFGH.
In the case of team AFGH against BCDE normally the BCDE team would be stronger.
Only difference is that in such a case you don't know the difference in strength between each player and thus the whole is harder to predict.

It's not the goal of any nations cup to make team AFGH into a team AAAA like Gnuffone wants.
That would just defeat the whole purpose of it.

Yeah, seeding teams is definitely a necessity. Maybe something like make four 'pots' A to D, with A the 'strongest' teams and the 'weakest' in D and draw from there to pit A vs D and B vs C. That's one idea to go about that. You might opt for something more elaborate if you have a lot of teams though.

@brisk, i was joking, i know is a bit unfair, and anyway nobody allowe me to do it.
Anyway, if you limit to 2/3 games for player i will be out of my team.
I am bored to lose for not my mistake. Italy haven't much good player, that want really focus for win.
@Aranka, Depends how much is better A on B. If A is a top player, and B only a good player, i am pretty sure that AFGH > BCDE.
I will say for one last time: check past nation cup, i think is enough clear that my thought is supported from the fact that go on final who have the top player and not who have an average of the best players.

So basic question is

We want to be this competition between nation teams? Like soccer or maybe athletic league?

Or we want to be competiton between nations represented by top player (with support of some weaker ones)? Like Davis Cup (and this is not good example, but i cannot think of better one)

Even in the Davis Cup the 2 strongest player of each nation have to face each other and only 3rd and 4th may be hustled.
Only exception to the rule is through disciplinary actions and/or obvious injury sanctioned by the referee.

Doubles have to be announced shortly before commencing the game.

In that case the strongest player plays 1 out of the 4 single games and 1 out of the 1 double games.
So 2 out of 5 would be the max you could achieve there.


@Kingu - It would really depend on how that is all implemented. How do people judge the seed ?? Would past results be taken into account (some teams did not participate previously or have changed significantly) or will they go for perceived strength and weakness (which is very subjective) ??

@Aranka: thanks for info on Davis Cup. As i stated, i cannot think of better example

What is the date limit to put a team and line up ? France will have teams

Gnuffone,

The way I see the Nation's Cup is that it's about the strongest team winning. If there's a team of moderately strong players who help each other perfectly, I'd rather see them win than a team with only very strong players..., who constantly argue and fight in team chat and simply refuse to help their teammates when necessary, because they care more about their ego than about the team.

Regarding puppets and alts (is there really any difference, practically speaking?): dunga doesn't allow it, so don't do it. Having said that, for all *I* care, go right ahead... it won't work. One players controlling (directly with alts, or indirectly with puppets) the whole team will not be able to beat a team of moderately strong players who work as a team. I don't care how smart someone is; there's no way for one person to out-think five reasonably smart and experienced opponents who work together. There's no way for one person to consider as many radically different strategies as five people can come up with. And maybe most importantly, team mates are a perfect sounding board if you are unsure whether a particular plan is a good one.

Speaking of teamwork, if you cannot convince one of your team mates about changing their orders, there's actually many possibilities:

• Your team mate prefers another style; it's not the way you would play, but their orders are just as "valid" as yours. In this case, you shouldn't even have asked them to change their orders.
  
• Your idea is actually better, but you still cannot convince your teammate, because he lacks the insight to understand why your orders are better.
  
• Your idea is actually better, but you still cannot convince your teammate, because you need to work a little more on your leadership skill.
  

Sorry to be blunt, but in each of these cases, that simply means you are probably not the strongest team and because of that, not yet ready to win the Nation's Cup.

RvW, what are you on about...

One players controlling (directly with alts, or indirectly with puppets) the whole team will not be able to beat a team of moderately strong players who work as a team

Of couse 1 person playing as 5 players can beat 5 different players, if anything the moves are more directly coordinated because he knows the thinking behind each player, what they are trying to do and what they will do in a couple turns. The only downside is if the 1 player overlooks something then all 5 players in that team misses it.

I'd rather see them win than a team with only very strong players..., who constantly argue and fight in team chat and simply refuse to help their teammates when necessary, because they care more about their ego than about the team.

Someone who does that is in no way a a very strong player... strong players know what is most beneficiary for the win, don't care about getting eliminated in the process if it means they distract 2 or 3 enemies while some team-mates expand freely. they only pick coutners for 3 good bonuses and occupy enemies without caring for themselves. a win is a win, whether you get eliminated or not. Please show me a game with a very strong player who cared more about their "ego" instead of going for the win....

Regarding puppets and alts (is there really any difference, practically speaking?)

Puppets need to make some decisions of their own, alts don't, large difference. Not every single move is dictated to a puppet, the leader doesnt have enough time to type every single part down.

@RvW: the difference between puppet and alts is easy:
alts = an account moved directly from themselves.
puppet = teammate that listen you for the most important move, like if attack/defende or expand, if is better mirror pick or pick some different cluster etc. But he make his move in their own like Hedja say.
And alts are don't allowed, puppet is allowed...

And you are wrong for sure about that 5 good player are better then 1 with alts.
I make many game against team formed to top player like myhand/sze/gui/salahdin/hhh against me+me or me+me+me. And i win more then 50% of that game.
Play with alts IS A BIG ahead.

A pity that i cannot show it to you winning with 4 alts Nation Cup, Dunga will never allowed me to do it :/

I believe that downside compensates for the potential upsides and a pretty big difference in skill level on top. Sure, a "grandmaster" can still wipe out five newbies (just look at the final challenge level in single player), but I really doubt one of the best players on here can single-handedly ("single-mindedly") beat a team of five pretty good players, playing as a team. Even if none of those five stand any chance at all against him in a 1vs1.

Let me rephrase: "a team with only players who are very strong 1vs1..., [but make a lousy team]". And yes, that's exactly my reasoning: knowingly and willingly fight a losing battle, to ensure your team's victory is a perfect example of teamwork.

Don't underestimate the amount of work some people are willing to put into perfectionism (and/or ego tripping)!

A pity that i cannot show it to you winning with 4 alts Nation Cup, Dunga will never allowed me to do it :/

You could still invite the winners for a "demonstration match". Even if you use games with the same settings as NC, it's not actually part of NC, so you can play as you+you+you+you+you. Of course the opponents would have to voluntarily accept the challenge (it's not a part of NC after all), but if you can talk them into it, go ahead, why not? It would be a nice way of testing (proving / disproving) the theory.

(Apologies for the double post.)

I'm not even going to bother replying to Gnuffone since that'll accomplish very little.

@Aranka: I know. I have that thought about that, but I don't think that there is a workable objective manner of determining the seeds. It'll end up being a subjective verdict of dunga and perhaps one or two peers based on reputation/skill for things to run smoothly. An objective seeding system would imply preliminary rounds, which is just the thing we wanted to avoid. I probably don't like a subjective seeding system as much as you do, but in order to get this to work it is a necessary evil, so to say.

One way or another, the seeding will be necessary to avoid big teams clashing early on. Such a system is used for many tournaments and this one should be no different.

@RvW:
Yes i want use the same setting ofc.
I don't know if the Brazil and Norway that are on finals of the past nation cup are interest in this, but i hope they will play ;)

about in how many settings a player can play the calculation is simple.

We have 5 players at 5v5, 3 at 3v3, 2 at 2v2, 3 at 1v1. Total 13 spots.
If we limit to 2 events/player is not possible because 5x2 = 10 spots.

To limit it has to be 3 events, since 5x3 = 15, making it possible.


And i have to think about the challenge, at this moment i wouldnt know what to answer

Limit could be 4, and i think could be a good compromise between no limit and 3.
About challenge, anyway until 15 july i am busy with exam. After i will have a lot of free time, and i hope you accepte it, and Norway too ;)

there are 2 3v3s and 2 2v2s, so there are 18 spots. unless both teams must include the same players?