wct some advice take a trip to America, stay a couple of years, then judge us. If it wasn't for America this entire dam world would be either Fascist or communist

Take your own advice and travel the world to meet people of other cultures, to get a better perspective on the reality of this *one* planet we all have to share.

I've been exposed to US media and politics since I was born. If you think no one can have any insight into American culture unless they happen to have US citizenship, you're fooling yourself. Most US citizens aren't even well-informed when it comes to US politics. If they were, they sure as hell wouldn't have voted for Bush *twice*.

You criticised Jai earlier for not knowing the history of the Iraq war and worded in such a way implying you did.

You might want to consider the difference between "Wct you claim you know every single fact about the Iraq war and it's prior history" and "You criticised Jai earlier for not knowing the history of the Iraq war".

did *not* make PR campaigns to try to sell the war to their people.

You do realize all wars (no matter how justified or right) have to be supported by a domestic and international propaganda war to maintain popular support for the overall war?

The only way your claim could work is if, as you've just about said already, *any* president would have done exactly as Bush did, because the presidency is just a puppet title.

Again I was asking you about a hypothetical scenario where Bush would not have been president, but where Al Gore would have been in office. Clearly you can't use facts, critical thinking, historical analysis, or predictive abilities to explain what would have happened. I'm asking you to make a prediction.

If that's the case, why do you hate Obama so much? He's just a puppet. Or the Clintons? Puppets. They have no power, apparently, of their own. They just follow the dictates of the secret cabal pulling all the strings behind the curtains.

"Every candidate for President since 1936 has been nominated by the Chase National Bank” – Sen. Robert A. Taft

Yes every president is a puppet. If you don't believe every president serves or is influenced in every decision by a horde of national security advisers, economists, career bureaucrats, university professors, interest group lobbyists, and other politicians then you have no grip on reality. Obviously the President has some autonomy, but the scope of that autonomy must be severely limited given the amount of pressure these external players can produce. Also I never said I hated Obama so I don't know where you got that. I dislike the policies implemented by Bush. I hate the policies implemented by the Obama administration. I don't hate the man. He's my president. I'm much too patriotic to declare hatred for my executive leader. I'm pretty sure you're allegation that I hate Obama "so much" is what you would call a straw man fallacy. You know there's a wikipedia page I could give you to learn about fallacious arguments ;)

Edited 12/31/2015 01:04:21

At this point I don't understand why we're arguing. I agree with this!!! I never supported Bush nor the neocons. I'm not a neocon. I think anyone who though Iraq had a nuke or a WMD is nuts.

Well I'm glad about this, but I hope you can understand the confusion which arose from your initial reply to my reply to The Conservative who had been going on about how great Bush was at 'uniting' the country after 9/11.

After your reply asking if Gore would have avoided the Iraq War, in this context, it sounds a lot like, "Bush was the better choice anyway, because his worst fuck up would have been made by Gore regardless."

So, instead of assuming that (I apologize for that; hope you can understand why I thought that, in context), let me just ask you straight out: Do you think Bush was a better choice than Gore in their election contest, using all the powers of 20/20 hindsight, having seen the consequences of Bush's presidency? It's a hypothetical.

(Perhaps, if you pretend to believe the puppet theory, you could try to argue that Gore would have made no difference. But I don't want to put words in your mouth.)

You do realize all wars (no matter how justified or right) have to be supported by a domestic and international propaganda war to maintain popular support for the overall war?

And you do realize that generating propaganda for an unjust war is something that one should be held responsible for, right?

Yes every president is a puppet. If you don't believe every president serves or is influenced in every decision by a horde of national security advisers, economists, career bureaucrats, university professors, interest group lobbyists, and other politicians then you have no grip on reality.

This is not what is meant by a puppet. A puppet is not merely 'influenced', but controlled. They have no power. They make no decisions of their own. You could get a tape-recorder to do the puppet's job if only you didn't need a live body to keep the masses fooled.

A president (unless your theory really is true) makes decisions. They listen to their advisers, but *they* make the final decisions. Right? Or do you disagree on even this basic point?

Also I never said I hated Obama so I don't know where you got that.

It brushed off from The Conservative when you replied into our ongoing sub-thread. Sorry.

A fucking failure.

Do you think Bush was a better choice than Gore in their election contest, using all the powers of 20/20 hindsight, having seen the consequences of Bush's presidency? It's a hypothetical.

Is neither an option hahahaha? I supported Pat Buchanan who ran on the Reform Party ticket for 2000. He's a paleoconservative. After the fall of communism and the USSR he was the fiercest opponent on the right for the huge military defense budgets and the expansion of the quasi-American empire. Bush was always an eastern establishment neoconservative, and Pat opposed almost every one of his foreign and economic policies. That being said if you're really forcing me to pick just between Bush and Gore to be honest I would vote Gore. Not because of the Iraq war but because of environmental protectionism. I disagree completely with climate skeptics on the right and I agree with Christians who advocate for stewardship: it is the responsibility of humans to protect and maintain the land provided by God for all natural beings. Although I probably disagree with Gore on how the environment should be protected. I never really saw Bush as a "smart guy" anyway. He was a good man at heart...I just disagree with too much of his political philosophy.

Ok, thanks for that clarification. My assumption was indeed mistaken. Apologies.

[ETA: In return, I'll answer your original question straight out: No, Gore would certainly not have supported the Iraq War if he had been president. It took a lot of effort to push the Iraq War and make it a reality; it was not a forgone conclusion as you seem to think. Bush's administration was one of the primary (if not *the* primary) forces enacting all this effort; and that, by definition, includes Bush himself. Just about any reasonable person in the position of president at that time would not have supported the Iraq War. Obviously, I don't consider Tony Blair a 'reasonable person'.]

Edited 12/31/2015 01:41:39

ehh I never would have voted for gore. i just could never support a pro abortion ticked anyway not to mention his arrogance disgusted me. that's one thing people made fun of bush for being that i never saw....arrogance. heck, i think bill Clinton would do a better job running the country then al gore. Clinton, JFK, Truman, And Andrew Jackson were my fav democrat presidents. Clinton because....well for some odd reason we prospered under him. JFK because his policy against the USSR ( one which you would never see in a modern day democrat ever ) Truman because of his marshal Plan and his willingness to work with conservatives. Jackson because he made some good points even though his braking up of the big banks was illegal

Edited 12/31/2015 01:51:20

So Conservative, you think abortion is terrible in all cases?

Imagine a 13 year old girl who has been impregnated by a horrible paedophilic rapist, and she is in no position to give birth; let alone raise the child. What do you tell her? She can't get an abortion?

To WCT: Thanks for the straight answer (though I can't say I'm surprised by the answer xD). That being said I guess you admit that Hillary Clinton is not a "reasonable person". I agree with you however that a person with even moderate knowledge of foreign policy or history would have foreseen the terrible consequences of the Iraq invasion and the illogical justification of it. Too bad our politicians (right and left) lacked that.

Ox: I don't want to start a new argument, but that's kinda what the foster system is for. Although let me add a disclaimer that the foster system is shit right now. GOP and Democrats should invest a hell of a lot more money for that program instead of stationing troops and staging war games on the Eastern European front with Russia.

Also Conservative: I don't support pro-abortion candidates either, which is why I would have voted Buchanan but you have admit that Bush was not a responsible president. 2 failed wars, an economic collapse (at the end), a massive and horrible federal educational program, and ridiculous discretionary spending that increased the debt. I have no idea how those things make him a "conservative" president.

Edited 12/31/2015 01:51:56

his policy was conservative....how he implemented his policy was notwas not at all. Bush meant well but to be clear i never was and never will be a bush fan ( mostly because of the NCLBA ) Ox, That's a tough one. first of all i think rapists should have their penis cut off ( that's a real movement that i truly support ) and child rapists should be sent to the chair. if the 13 year olds life is in harm then yes but if not no. i would feel terrible for any little girl who would have that done to them but that baby is a human being too. btw 13 year olds getting pregnant is rare

Edited 12/31/2015 01:58:19

i think it could have been a much different outcome if gore had been president. you have to remember that an iraq invasion had been talked about for years and years by people like rumsfeld and cheney. i think cheney forced himself into the vice presidency and rumsfeld was appointed by bush (or rather, more likely cheney), so that influence would not have been there if gore had won. we would have still invaded afghanistan im sure (though you could argue 9/11 might not have happened if gore was president)(not because the terrorists like dems more, just that intelligence might have been handled differently). we might have still been fooled by reports of iraq having wmds, but i think its more likely for gore to bomb them and try to arm the kurds. who knows if that outcome would have been better or worse, but it would definitely be different. but who knows? gore could have just been a sociopath and done monstrous things as president.

i kinda disagree about presidents being puppets. i think that presidents have a choice on how much they listen to outside interests. mostly, for whatever reason (i sometimes think sinister), presidents are willing to do what is best for the moneyed interests. but i think presidents do have the power to say no to pretty much anyone (anyone in the executive branch or military anyway). they might not get much done by not playing by the rules, they might even get shot for it, but ultimately it is their responsibility for whatever happens in their branch of government. if they didn't do the right thing or let the wrong thing happen or didn't pay attention enough to keep people under them from doing the wrong thing, then they are the ones responsible.

I jumped from page one to five and it fell apart rapidly.

Praise
Jon
Stewart

He helped me through the last 5 years.

OnlyThePie - Jon Steward or Stephen Colbert or John Oliver?

Ehhh Gore might have invaded. he was actually bit of a warhawk in his days. Honestly if i was bush in that position with bad intelligence...i probably would have invaded too

Ehhh Stewart was funny but closed minded. i like jimmy fallon because he makes fun of both sides and does not spend his nights ranting about how anyone whos not democrat is from the stone age

^True that. He's fair and balanced at least.

Did you see that show where Jimmy Fallon did the watch me whip whip nae nae dance? I hate that song but Jimmy was so freaking funny. His laugh is contagious too

Jimmy Fallon and Conan O'Brien are my favorite late night hosts

Edited 12/31/2015 02:15:42