Eklipse: "The media always takes words out of context, and it seems you've bought into that. What Trump proposed was a temporary ban, and never once did he say that all Muslims are terrorists. What he essentially said was "I don't know which Muslims are terrorists and which ones aren't".


Koala: "Oh yeah, well he just said he would forbid the entrance of any Muslims to the American soil, dont you consider this as totally xenophobic. Out of context, yeah, blame the media."

Xenophobia: intense or IRRATIONAL DISLIKE or fear of people from other countries. Emphasis on irrational because I cannot see how fearing the only religion with sizable theocratic terrorist groups is irrational. Furthermore, Trump doesn't necessarily DISLIKE Muslims. He fears them because they, like I mentioned before, support terrorist actions and have a chance of perpetrating terrorist attacks like no other religion does.

Koala: "Your [Eklipse's] own comments are arrogant, with hints of nationalism, do you really think the US is still an example for the world?"

1). How is Eklipse arrogant? He says the US is not like Europe. That is true
2). If he is nationalist, why is that a problem? After WWII, nationalism has become taboo. EXTREME nationalism is bad of course, but in moderation it is not bad. I have no problem with people saying America is the greatest country on Earth (but more on that below).
3). That brings me to my third point. I do NOT believe America is an example to the world. I believe under Reagan we were, but Socialism, moral decay, Obama's policies and general liberal agenda and culture have turned us into a run-of-the-mill nation. It would require capitalism, strength and moral fiber to once more turn us into the greatest nation on Earth.

Trump = mosley.
like hitler, but won't succeed

Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims.

Note: statement only refers to the war against jihadi terror, the principal type of terror perpetrated in the last decade and really the only type of terror the world is focused on. I readily agree and admit that terrorism has come in all shapes, sizes, religions, races, etc when we look at the larger historical information. I am referring to the problem the world shares in combating Al Nusra, ISIS, Al Qaeda, the Taliban, Boko Haram, Lashkar-e-Toiba, Hezbollah, etc.

Edited 1/7/2016 20:42:32

This whole thread just seems like two toddlers fighting over who touched the toy first. " I'm right" "no I'm right" it's not even a debate it's just 3 Americans trying to support Trump and sticking it in European faces by calling the people and ethics stupid. When America is hardly in a fit place to talk.

@Jai
So are you telling me the IRA weren't terrorists ? You narrow minded fool. Not only were they terrorists, they was also "white" mostly being Christian. So don't bring this racial hatred into warlight. When you clearly don't have a clue.

it's just 3 Americans trying to support Trump

Please don't be disingenuous Salty. I don't support Trump and you can bet your ass I would never vote for him. He's not a true conservative in my opinion. So let's get this lie you've told out of the way. I am simply defending his right to free speech against those who wish to tear it down on the left.

Second: So are you telling me the IRA weren't terrorists ? You narrow minded fool. Not only were they terrorists, they was also "white" mostly being Christian.

Let me clarify. I apologize I should have made the disclaimer before I made the statement. I was referring to terrorism as in Jihadi Terrorism. I in no way was extending my statement towards all of history. There have been terrorists of every shape, size, religion, ethnicity, race, etc. My point is that all Jihadi terrorists (this is the principal terrorism that everyone on this thread was discussing and indeed is the only terrorism that the world is focused on right now so please don't bring up historical examples like the IRA) are Muslim. I have no "racial hatred". Also don't tell me I don't have a clue...I'm probably one of the few people on warlight to be around a true terrorist attack while I lived in India.

Edited 1/7/2016 20:39:59

That second paragraph didn't tell me anything apart from that you refuse to believe the truth. You said all terrorists are Muslim, which is just a blatant lie. Not only is it a lie it is also stupid. I refuse to be dragged into this debate. But when ridiculous statements like that get thrown around you have to step in.

Edited 1/7/2016 20:49:32

So let me eliminate "historical examples" how about the persecution and terror being reigned down on Muslims living in Burma? Buddhists attacking Muslims?

Edited 1/7/2016 20:49:53

By Buddhists I think you refer specifically to the fringe 969 movement of Sayadaw Wirathu. You must understand the political origins of this movement. I would not consider the violence between Rohingya muslims and Burmese buddhists to be terrorism because acts of violence have been committed on both sides of the aisle. Instead its more accurately classified as a proxy war between 2 religious groups. It has its origin in WWII (as most ethno-religious wars of modern times do) and British colonialism where (sadly) many isolated examples of Bengali Muslims raping and converting Buddhist women were taken as an expression of Muslim culture inciting decades of riots between the two groups. That being said...I can secede that point to the general rule to you. You found a fringe exception and I am sure there is many many more you could cook up. However you miss the point...the world is not focused on Buddhist terrorism because its not being exported internationally at the massive scale that Jihadi-Islamic terrorism has. The scale, the organization, and the sheer number of groups is what should concern everyone. That is the origin of the statements made by Trump. That there is a global problem with Jihadi Terrorism and we must take steps to defend the homeland.

Anyway I think we've derailed the main point of this topic. Does the act of removing Donald Trump from the UK constitute an attack on his first amendment right to free speech? Yes. I have yet to hear anyone present a coherent argument contrary.

Edited 1/7/2016 23:21:37

Fair enough.

As I have very few time right now I will just respond about 2 things,


- Jai: "all terrorists are Muslims"

Please keep this way Jai you're only digging yourself in deeper...


- General PE: "They (the Muslims) incite far more hatred against the West than Trump does against Muslims. He says that shouldn't enter for a while. They say we should die. WTF is wrong with this scenario!!":

Did you just say that 1,5 billion people in this Earth should not have the possibility to go the US just because they are Muslims?
And please, the comparison between a single man and an entire population of 1.500.000.000 people (this way it shows better how many people you were targeting at with your comment), is awkward. You seem to understand nothing about how the things go currenctly in the Middle East, of course it is not the entire Muslim population who is terrorist, it is a very very very small part of fanatized people, many even having nothing to do with Islam, a trend showed that at least 25% of the people going for Jihad from Europe were actually not Muslims at all, and anyway the remaining part of people that are true terrorists are people who were criminals, disoriented or mentally ill persons. Again stop confusing everything here...

I don't get how can you that much taint an entire community (the Muslims) the same way (as terrorists)? I guess it's mostly because of ignorance, but again you are lucky that the Muslim community of WL keeps silent, your comments are tactless and totally disrespectful.


(More things to come tomorrow)

I don't see all Muslims as terrorists or America-hating. However, it is a fact that "surveys show that 58% of Muslims in the U.S. reject criticism of Islam as a right; 46% want such blasphemers punished legally. Twelve percent want them KILLED. 25% of Muslims in the U.S. think that jihad SUICIDE BOMBINGS are JUSTIFIED in some circumstances." Althoug these numbers may be slightly high, that is still terrifying. Not all Moslems are terrorists, but many are, and many more support or do not disagree with terrrorist actions.

I see no reason to allow in Muslims when there is a 25% chance they support suuicide bombings. I want to protect Americans. Letting in people who have a 12% chance of wanting us dead if we "blaspheme" is not condusive to safety.

EDIT: I must say, it is nice to argue with someone who (if misguided and wrong) is at least attempting to use logic.

Edited 1/8/2016 01:37:12

^ Give me your sources please before posting figures, I would really like to know where these statistics come from.

Did you just say that 1,5 billion people in this Earth should not have the possibility to go the US just because they are Muslims?
And please, the comparison between a single man and an entire population of 1.500.000.000 people (this way it shows better how many people you were targeting at with your comment), is awkward. You seem to understand nothing about how the things go currenctly in the Middle East, of course it is not the entire Muslim population who is terrorist, it is a very very very small part of fanatized people,

Unfortunately the number is not as small as you think. Pew Research Center interviewed people in countries with high Muslim populations, asking them about their thoughts on ISIS. They have a support rate of around 6-10%. See Link 1.

Another poll reported in WSJ shows 22% of Syrians have a favourable view of ISIS. 82% believe ISIS was foreign made group by namely, the US. See Link 2

Of course, you can argue that ISIS sympathisers are still in the minority, but they are quite clearly not as few as you think. One analysis on the poll I provided in Link 1 calculates that there are AT LEAST 63 million ISIS sympathisers, and up to 287 million if the undecided are factored into the number. See Link 3.

Link 1 - http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/in-nations-with-significant-muslim-populations-much-disdain-for-isis/
Link 2 - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/09/15/one-in-five-syrians-say-islamic-state-is-a-good-thing-poll-says/
Link 3 - http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/11/pew_poll_between_63_million_and_287_million_isis_supporters_in_just_11_countries.html


Now I don't fully agree with Trump banning all 1.5 billion Muslims in the world, but when ISIS openly releases propaganda videos threatening Jihad/terrorist attacks on western and American soil (see links 4 and 5), and it turns out that there is a significant number of people, albeit a minority, in some countries that support them, and the US and FBI has admitted that it cannot vet refugees coming in for potential terrorists (see link 6), then how do you, as a leader, protect your citizens?

Link 4 - https://www.rt.com/usa/322672-isis-threat-new-york/
Link 5 - http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/18/us/new-york-isis-video-threat/
Link 6 - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/federal-eye/wp/2015/11/17/senior-obama-officials-have-warned-of-challenges-in-screening-refugees-from-syria/

Edited 1/8/2016 02:40:29

How do you know he does not think this way, explain me. Are you in his mind? You are impressing me Darth Darth, your telepathic skills are fabulous.

I am not in his mind, but his words are out there for anyone willing to listen to them. I have, and he does not believe all Muslims to be terrorists, he just knows that there is not good way to differentiate between the good and the few bad.

So generalizing that every immigrants are robbers and rapists, this is right? I think you do not get the stupidity of his statements here.

Listen to his speech. And you left out illegal again.

Explain me again wtf the British petition is giving credit to Trump at anything? Your logic is weird really.

It's not giving Trump any credit. It's trying to ban him for his views because the nation thinks he's spewing hate from his mouth. If they would go and listen to his speeches themselves, they would find that he is not racist or otherwise prejudice.

Same thing goes for you Darth Darth.

I go out of my way not to take things out of context, which is why I am here explaining to you why your thoughts about Trump are not correct.

Do not even try to reverse what I just stated, how the UK citizens should be ashamed of this, aren't they free to be against Trump's ideas, how dare you criticize their actions, you know what, Great Britain is a democracy, so you are free to make petitions there about anything you want, so if they want to make a petition against Trump, just let them do this, Darth this is a totally arbitrary and peremptory statement.

My statement is sound. Those who have signed the petition do not know what Donald Trump actually said and they are brainwashed with left wing media into thinking he is a racist. Instead of doing their own research to see if he is worth worrying about, they jump on the Trump-hating bandwagon and sign on up, oblivious to the irony and hypocrisy of their actions. Any competent Brit should be ashamed of his brethren for trying to ban a possible world leader for hate speech that he has never said.

Also please explain me what do you mean about “their nation has previously done with many others before this time”?

The UK has banned several people with views the Parliament doesn't find, adequate. It is a shame that the right to petition (which the US also has, in case you didn't know) has been degraded to the point of outright banning people with unpopular opinions.

I believe Snoopdog is banned from the UK.

@Koala - they are from a Breitbart article by Pamela Geller: http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/12/16/geller-do-muslims-around-the-world-really-hate-the-united-states-yes/
I assume you distrust Breitbart and Geller, so I said the figures may be high.

@ Darth Darth: Michael Savage was banned, for instance

Pulsey,

Unfortunately the number is not as small as you think. Pew Research Center interviewed people in countries with high Muslim populations, asking them about their thoughts on ISIS. They have a support rate of around 6-10%. See Link 1.

Notice first that I was referring to the infinitesimal minority who are really part of ISIS, so the number of people fully participating in the Islamic State is indeed as small as I think, researches made upon the real number of the real “ISIS manpower” is not more than 20.000-50.000, and many of them are prisoners, slaves or children kidnapped and taken by force to become cannon fodders, so balance this with the 1,5 billion of Muslims this is rather small don't you think? You are confusing or misunderstanding my statement here: supporting is not being part of it.
And God, 6-10%? what about the remaining 94-90%? Do you find this legitimate to ban an entire population upon the basis of an extremist minority. Guess what, any nation, any people in this earth have an extremist fringe of all kind, shall we ban the French because 10% of them are totally racist? Should we ban the Americans because 10% of them are religious zealots and want to declare war on the World because they think their nation is the chosen one by God? Should we ban the Chinese because 10% of them want to annihilate the Japanese and are still grieving for their action during ww2 whereas most of them weren't even born?
We can say everything and nothing with simple polls that aren't backed up with any serious analysis.

My turn now, lets reverse it and take a look on this extract from the Canadian Norman Lester analysis made upon many surveys about the American People:

In 2003 the Strategic Task Force on Education Abroad concluded that the ignorance from Americans of the world outside the US is such that it constitutes a threat to the country's national security.
37% of Americans can not locate the US on a world globe. 30% are unable to name the ocean that is on their east coast. 80% do not know where Iraq is. Even today, 33% of them are sure that weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq.
55% are convinced that Christianity was established as the state religion by the US Constitution. Half of US schools do not teach the science of evolution or Darwinism, preferring creationism and focus their teaching upon the Bible. By 2004, only 13% of Americans believed in natural evolution, while 45% thought that man was created by God as revealed in the Bible. The percentage of Americans who accept evolution is lower than it was 30 years ago. 500 years after Copernicus, one in five Americans still think the Sun revolves around the Earth as stated in the Bible. 35% of them believe that what she says is literally true. Moreover, they are 65% said that the Bible answers all the basic questions of life.

Everything said here is really not different from what Muslim fundamentalists believe. Simply replace Koran with Bible.

Nevertheless, even as religious zealots, 60% of them can not name five of the Ten Commandments. 50% of high school seniors think Sodom and Gomorrah were a married couple. 60% of Americans believe that Noah's Ark really existed, 12% of American adults identify Joan of Arc as the wife of Noah. The third of them believes it is Billy Graham, not Jesus that delivered the Sermon on the Mount. 35% believe in UFOs, witches 31% and 25% in astrology.
Among developed countries, the United States has the lowest average IQ with 98. In a survey made by the Program for International Student Assessment, which analyzed the scientific knowledge and logical and analytical abilities of high school students, Americans are 24th with a score of 483, far behind the top five: Finland 544, South Korea with 542, Japan with 534, Canada with 532 and Belgium 529 (hey hey hey!).

If these figures illustrated the ignorance of an underdeveloped country, it would not matter, but they reflect the way of thinking of the citizens of the most powerful country in the world who also believe in American Exceptionalism, in an unique destiny of the United States. Not only do Americans believe in God, but they are convinced that God in His wisdom created the American people different and better than the scum that inhabits the rest of the planet and he has entrusted the governance of the world. May God protect us !

So if I was your Muslim equivalent, upon seeing these statistics and has been said, I would indeed consider you as part of a dangerous people that needs to be stopped (this is what you advocate), if I was a Egyptian I would promulgate a law banning every Americans, see how dangerous they are! You see this cannot work.

As you see, we can tell everything with polls, xenophobic and anti democratic parties use it all the time for their own propaganda, Hitler himself used it once and it worked as he was democratically elected, their use some random figures and misconstrue it the way they want, avoiding the whole analyze. That's how you get truncated views.
That's why polls aren't enough for analysis, you need to read some serious reviews and works, that would enrich your judgment. People only listening to Trump words are gullible, having an unique vantage is what leads to the current situation with American people here commenting wrongly and defending and even trying to justify Trump speeches of hatred (see Darth Darth).

Do you never considered that fanaticism is not due to religion itself, or a so called inherent violence, but actually correlated with socio-economical factors?
If you only did some historical researches, you would understand how this whole argument about Muslims being inherently violent does not stand.
Remember the Crusades? The most barbaric ones weren't the Muslims here but the Christians.
The Islamic culture shone during the Dark ages of Europe, Cordoba the capital of Islamic Spain was the biggest city of the Western world, where you could find the most talented scientists and philosophers, this society was an example of tolerance were Jews and Christians cohabited altogether with the dominant Muslims of Al Andalus, at the meantime the Frankish Crusaders were slaughtering the whole Muslim and Jewish population of Jerusalem.

The fact that a big part of Americans think Muslims are extremists and violent people show how much you clearly know nothing about their culture and history, they just repeat what the Media say, I do not blame you nor other Americans, I blame your education system which is certainly too much focused on the “western, christian, white and anglosaxon culture”, and this is not only your nation, France and Europe are also similar (but improving as since last year the Islamic World history is part of the whole official corpus of teaching in History classes).

I had personally the chance to have different history teachings, mainly because my class was not a French history class and had a very moderate view about Patriotism and Nationalism, but am International class with half of people even not French but Spaniard. So we discussed a lot about foreign cultures, and we even had the chance to make a trip in Andalusia, the very province of Spain which is the best example of what a great Islamic nation could be purified form any extremism.

Yet we talk a lot about ISIS, Afghan talibans, Syrian and Iraq's dire situations caused by the war, but you always avoid the fact that some Arab countries have a thriving economy and culture, the best example according to me is Morocco or even Turkey, Indonesia as the most populated Muslim nation is not that bad either. Anything is not black nor white, if we face currently a strong Islamic extremism and fanaticism it is only because of many economics and social factors.
You understand now why Trump saying we need to ban all the Muslims is utterly stupid. The people that would be prejudiced is not the Muslims, but you Americans, because you will only alienate 1/3 of the Humanity.

Another poll reported in WSJ shows 22% of Syrians have a favourable view of ISIS. 82% believe ISIS was foreign made group by namely, the US. See Link 2

Oh and you know what, this is not totally wrong, ISIS mainly originates from the disaster caused by the war in Iraq, don't blind yourself, the Syrians are here indeed right when they say ISIS has been created by the US, it wasn't created directly by the US of course, but yet, indirectly because of the troubles made by the US invasion of Iraq and its total failure (same thing goes for Afghanistan), most of the leaders of ISIS currently are former generals of Saddam Hussein, when Hussein's regime was destroyed still many generals escaped, and the US and NATO allies did not rightly made their duty, when ISIS started to grow in North Iraq, tell me what was the US army doing? What were they doing while ISIS was still a weak group of criminals wandering in Northern Iraq? Oh yes, the US were securing the Southern part, the precious Southern territories were most of the Iraqis oil is actually located! People like Eklipse will tell us here, it is not the US fault, you can only blame the Iraqis sure. because they cannot have an objective view of their nation, this is a serious hypocrisy, you invade a nation and leave it totally wrecked and in a worse situation compared to before, so again to answer your comment, ISIS is indeed a monster that originates from the US invasion of Iraq, born from the ashes of what remained of Iraq, the US are totally responsible of the existence of ISIS, and only blinded nationalists such as you cannot yet realize or really admit it.

Edited 1/8/2016 22:08:56