Update 3.13 Discussion (new AI, autopilot, etc.): 4/11/2016 17:47:51 |
Sułtan Kosmitów
Level 64
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@Motoki, you mean in WL? At the moment - yes, in the future - possibly not.
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Update 3.13 Discussion (new AI, autopilot, etc.): 4/11/2016 18:28:22 |
M. Poireau
Level 57
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It would be quite interesting if effective Warlight AI was developed AND it was allowed in tournaments, ladders, and other competitive games.
I would expect the game then to drift away from standard map+settings (like the current "standard" Strategic 1v1) and towards changing the game each time you play: different maps, different settings, different challenges.
In short, an effective Warlight player would be one who adapts quickly and learns new strategies in every game. In an ever-shifting tactical landscape, I can't see an AI being more effective than a human (at least not in the foreseeable future).
Although that's a bit of a different direction for some, I, for one, would welcome that kind of Warlight (it's what I enjoy most, anyway - not perfecting my play on one template and one map, but challenging myself to develop different strategies with every new couple of games).
It's a little like the Battles in Ender's Game, for those who are familiar with that book!
Edited 4/11/2016 18:29:38
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Update 3.13 Discussion (new AI, autopilot, etc.): 4/11/2016 20:35:49 |
Epicular
Level 46
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^ love that book
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Update 3.13 Discussion (new AI, autopilot, etc.): 4/11/2016 21:24:38 |
Sułtan Kosmitów
Level 64
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Quo vadis Fizzer, quo vadis WarLight :(
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Update 3.13 Discussion (new AI, autopilot, etc.): 4/12/2016 09:46:20 |
Hasdrubal
Level 61
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While I am eager to see better AI, I am against automatons which can do jobs instead of humans. If one wants to play against AI, or with help of AI, there are practice games.
Even uses of AI for booted/surrendered players should be avoided, or they could play for the same amount of time as designed in settings (which can't be more than 2 turns, currently is not implemented). Everything else is delaying of the game, artificial result, ignoring in-game deals (cooperative player suddenly become enemy), etc. In ladder games, use of AI should be prohibited or minimized to small amount of turns.
The fact that in team game, when one player is booted or surrendered, and he becomes AI, if AI becomes better or even with starting AI, the outcome can go to advantage weaker player over better ones.
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Update 3.13 Discussion (new AI, autopilot, etc.): 4/12/2016 19:07:14 |
M. Poireau
Level 57
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Fortunately, for those who don't like AI replacing players, there's an easy setting for that: make sure that booted/surrendered players in your games do NOT become AI.
I agree, however, that making the AI "too good" is potentially a problem for competitive games. An option to use a "weaker" AI for those situations would be welcome.
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Update 3.13 Discussion (new AI, autopilot, etc.): 4/13/2016 17:24:22 |
Sułtan Kosmitów
Level 64
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@M.Poireau Yeah but autopilot should be able to be disabled too. :/
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Update 3.13 Discussion (new AI, autopilot, etc.): 4/13/2016 18:00:12 |
M. Poireau
Level 57
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I'm watching the new AI use Blockade cards... and the uses generally seem to hurt the AI more than they help. (They usually Blockade high-value bonuses, even if they're not threatened by their enemies. Odd!)
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Update 3.13 Discussion (new AI, autopilot, etc.): 4/13/2016 18:52:04 |
Holdway
Level 62
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I like the idea of an ai being able to play on the ladders. I also like the concept of autopilot mode.
But I think there is an important distinction to make between an ai playing on the ladders from an account that is clearly labelled as an ai, with it's stats and performance clearly visible, and a human being able to pay a subscription to enable the ai to play for them and effect their own statistics.
For me that has the potential to demean the achievements of players and is a little short sighted. It is probably true that right now an ai could be designed that would beat the best players here. Obviously no one is going to invest the vast sums of money and time in developing an alphalight. But who can say where ai will be in 10 or 20 years time? What once would have taken a supercomputer and a team of programmers could well be within the reach of a decent computer, and a 12 year old kid with too much spare time on their hands.
With regards to autopilot in general I feel there are some very specific situations where it is a great tool at doing the hard labour in a game that is already won. Since the types of games where that is of most use are generally involving very large maps, possibly local deployment, or other less common variations, I think it makes more sense for it to be used for unranked games. This takes away the controversy of potential abuse, and lets people make use of the tool as a means to remove tedium. At the very least there should be a clear warning on ranked games if the option of allowing autopilot is allowed, and probably some way to show at any time during the game if the autopilot is turned on.
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Update 3.13 Discussion (new AI, autopilot, etc.): 4/13/2016 19:59:17 |
TeamGuns
Level 59
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Norman, great work on Wunderwaffe, the AI seems already good enough to beat low tier players and finish off won games. The only problem is that it still tends to crash quite often when there's cards it doesn't understand in a game. Is it possible to make it simply ignore those cards and randomly discard one if needed?
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For the use of the autopilot for competitive games, I think it should be probably limited in some way. I like the proposal of beren in the other thread to keep only Prod 1 for ranked games and keep the other ones for practice games only.
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Update 3.13 Discussion (new AI, autopilot, etc.): 4/13/2016 20:34:42 |
Norman
Level 58
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The only problem is that it still tends to crash quite often when there's cards it doesn't understand in a game. Is it possible to make it simply ignore those cards and randomly discard one if needed?
I haven't looked into those crashes yet. However I have tested my version on github with all kinds of cards and it never crashed. I only saw a potential problem with teammates playing a card while the AI was calculating. Norman, great work on Wunderwaffe, the AI seems already good enough to beat low tier players and finish off won games.I have higher aims: https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=10825463
Edited 4/13/2016 20:35:10
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Update 3.13 Discussion (new AI, autopilot, etc.): 4/13/2016 21:04:18 |
Kenny • apex
Level 59
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Hey Norman, I played around with Wunderwaffe, there should be a video still up on my twitch channel ( http://twitch.tv/wargaminglive ). Anyways I noticed something that Wunderwaffe does in regards of the current 1v1 ladder template. It seems to always pick bonuses of 3s and rarely ever combos. It does this on 2v2 ladder as well (though I'm aware it's not really thinking about the dynamics of a 2v2 game). Wunderwaffe will pick pretty much straight up solo 4s. I was wondering at how the logic for picking is going on Wunderwaffe? Generally you should try to make the AI pick in a way it will have the most income within 2 turns.
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Update 3.13 Discussion (new AI, autopilot, etc.): 4/14/2016 19:49:14 |
Rogue NK
Level 59
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If you could get the AI to start predicting where the opponent's picks are then that would be a huge step in the right direction.
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Update 3.13 Discussion (new AI, autopilot, etc.): 4/14/2016 20:48:52 |
Mike
Level 59
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Im not sure the point of AI is to be as good as humans (and why not better in the future ; pls don't assume it can never happen, humans operate with some logic, it is possible to record the logic on any possible scenario in AI's - unless it delays it too much, probably the only limit) ?
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