You've played 82 games to completion so far on the 1v1 ladder (on this account)- 55 wins and 27 losses. Your wins have ended after an average of 10.62 turns. Your losses, interestingly, have ended at an average of 15.15 turns- taking 4.53 more turns to end than your wins.

In terms of raw time, your wins take 1 day, 20 hours, 2 minutes, and 58 seconds to end (on average). Your losses, however, take 2 days, 11 hours, 6 minutes, and 10 seconds. That's a difference of about 15 hours, 3 minutes, and 12 seconds. On average, over the course of 82 games.

If you've only ever stalled in one of those losses, then that 15 hour difference translates to stalling in one game for 405 hours, or about 17 days (so even longer than a single max-length vacation would allow). And you must've stretched that game out for an extra 122 turns, too. On average, you have a tendency to stretch out your losses significantly longer than your opponents do.

This isn't about your haters, Billy. This is about your credibility and your sidetracking of the conversation.

I think there are flaws with measuring it this way. Like you said before about me playing my winning games faster but loses slower, but that would be near the same for most people near the top imo.

Most of the winning games (since its not 50% wins 50% losses roughly near the top of the ladder) are against people who are rated lower, meaning you have to think less and just put in any moves. Especially in the first 20 games to be ranked, half of them all you need to do is pick safe bonuses and use delays before attacking and you pretty much get a free win. While losses normally come from other high ranked players, which you are more likely to lose to but take the full 3 days picking and also 3 days for tough turns. And I expect most players do this no matter if they have an advantage or a disadvantage.

So while Billy might be a staller, I don't think what you say is enough evidence since Billy is fairly high up.

Edited 5/29/2016 16:27:54

Your wins against lower-rated players are for your opponents losses against higher-rated players, though.

Knyte, did you find those numbers with a script? If so some other players (me!) could easily be checked to compere the numbers.

Also "This isn't about your haters, Billy. This is about your credibility and your sidetracking of the conversation."

Nope. This is about an idea to fix the ladder stalling, but we left that track long time ago :p

EDIT: My current counting losses has an avg. of 14.4 turns. Not that far away from Billy's 15.15 turn avg. Turn number itself seems nothing extraordinary after compering it to 100% of sample size. xD Ofc. Time taken is relevant too.

Edited 5/29/2016 16:49:00

Lower ranked players tend not to take the ladder as seriously as high ranked players, so they are more likely to surrender earlier and devote less time to turns.

In addition, you're more likely to continue playing in a disadvantageous position of you think you are better than the other player than vice versa, since you are more likely to be able to outplay your opponent and turn the game around.

@Knyte True, but normally (at least for me) if I'm ranked lowly on a ladder, I care less. So without caring as much I play the turns faster since I have little to lose.

Though my points could be completely wrong for most of the players.

@TBest: Yes, and I didn't write the script to single out Billy. I'm currently locally saving the ladder games so I can run the analysis on the whole ladder without taking forever (it requires a bunch of queries to the Query Game API endpoint). Just creating a ranking of people by how much longer they take to finish their losses than their wins. Avoids the more tedious and shaky analysis of how many turns people continue games after they've met some criteria since we already know which games end in a loss and which ones end in a win.

Nope. This is about an idea to fix the ladder stalling, but we left that track long time ago :p

Well, I tried to engage in that but lolnoresponse because Billy's fixated on making 3 responses to his haters. I seriously doubt he has much of an interest in the topic at hand since most of his threads seem to get derailed the same way.

My current counting losses has an avg. of 14.4 turns. Not that far away from Billy's 15.15 turn avg. Turn number itself seems nothing extraordinary after compering it to 100% of sample size. xD Ofc. Time taken is relevant too.

Not measuring loss turn count, but instead loss - win (to adjust for your normal play speed).

(46, 15, 61, 10.43, 12.13, 1.7, '2 days, 6:05:28.239130', '2 days, 17:44:15.866666', '11:38:47.627536')

So for you on TBest (not Master of Chaos, that would be a bit messy since it's got multiple people behind it) I see 46 wins and 15 losses, with 10.43 turns to win and 12.13 turns to lose- so 1.7 more turns. Your losses take 11h, 38min, and about 48sec longer than your wins (though since we're talking about stalling, it's best to measure this in terms of your average game speed- you finish about 22% of an average game during that timeframe).

4 of your games were automatically excluded from the analysis because they ended before turn 2 or ended in a boot.

@Beren/Buns: we can see that in the final data, I guess. Could also just adjust for the ratings of your opponents although right now I'm just tracking people's rank/rating as I go along so if it's a common trend among higher-rated players then I guess we'll see that too.

Edited 5/29/2016 16:58:47

Hmm that is interesting Knyte, but a few thing seems wrong to me in the way you are doing this.

Firstly, I only considered my non-expired games. Mostly because I don't care about past stalling but current, games from 3 boots* from 2014 + games from 2013 are not relevant. Besides, then I didn't take the ladder seriously. Not to mention that the ladder settings have changed over the years, which may or may not make a difference.

*Boots. I don't understand how you ended up excluding 4 boots, since ther is more then 4 involved in my games? Did you only include wins by boot, but not losses?

Your losses take 11h, 38min, and about 48sec longer than your wins

First I read this as my wins only taking 48 sec shorter then my losses :p I suppose you mean 11h+ ~39 min.

it's best to measure this in terms of your average game speed- you finish about 22% of an average game during that timeframe

This could prove very interesting when you get the big data done!

we should switch to 1 day boot with 3-5 days banked

+1: simple, available immediately. Maybe set a lower initial bank time? E.G. 2 day initial +25% for 10 turns.

Initial high banked boot sounds good... but currently this would really hurt for those who draws an inactive player and has to wait the full banked boot + normal boot time. It also sucks for all +10 turns games.

+25% for 10 turns... don't solve stalling, but encourages it since you have "earned" the time.

Ther may be some perfect boot time setting, but it is not that easy to find. 3day boot is simple and consistent at least.

How about 1 day / turn with 100% banking? Then you guarantee that no one will take more than 1 day/turn, on average - plus inactive draws end in 24 hours.

@TBest: ah, yep, I did exclude losses by Boot but not wins. Thanks for catching that! I'll also weed out expired games- that'll make this run faster.

Also derp on the Master of Chaos thing. Had you confused with TeamGuns for some reason.

Edited 5/29/2016 17:46:19

I wouldn't change boot time - 3 days sounds quite good. Also i don't think messing with banked time is good solution - at least as long you can't easily check 'time to boot' from dashboard/my games(and sort by it).
About forced end condition - we have full history of all ladder games. Maybe someone(well, knyte? :D) could check how many games was won by players with 50% of enemy income/armies(boots also would be useful information here) at some point of game. If there were many such games what about - "two turns in a row with 50% of enemy income and armies" ?

If there were many such games

one would already be many enough

at least as long you can't easily check 'time to boot' from dashboard/my games(and sort by it).

Agreed. We're kind of stuck with the 3-day standard until Fizzer implements this. If you play in a larger amount of games at once, it's tricky to keep track of how much time you have left to take your turns unless they're all 3-day boot (or some standardized amount).

one would already be many enough

Well, if you know before start, that falling behind too much will end the game then it's fair. Like in speedway - lapped players are out immediately, despite you can say - 'hey, race is not over, why don't give him a chance?'

Hmm once I get all the game data saved I can get win% after falling behind certain income/army thresholds (both absolute and %-wise).

That's just the same thing any staller would say.

And some of them would be telling the truth...

Others have brought up points I hadn't even thought about. All I can tell you is that I don't stall my losses. I've been tempted but resisted the urge precisely because I knew I'd get roasted on the forum. I've created a position for myself where I am not allowed to stall or everybody will pile on insult me for it. Everybody else can stall, no problem, but not me.

I seriously doubt he has much of an interest in the topic at hand since most of his threads seem to get derailed the same way.

I absolutely do. I'd love for us to come up with a solution that fizzer implements. I can't help that my haters are attracted to my threads like flies to shit.

FYI I think your stats are great. Maybe you could build some 3rd party tool for us to use that gives advanced stats. People might even pay for it.

Maybe someone(well, knyte? :D) could check how many games was won by players with 50% of enemy income/armies(boots also would be useful information here) at some point of game.

There we go. If possible, find a position which has never been overcome. And then set it a bit worse than even that. And once somebody finds themselves in that position, count it as a loss.

So it turns out Billy probably doesn't stall. My bad.

All I can tell you is that I don't stall my losses. I've been tempted but resisted the urge precisely because I knew I'd get roasted on the forum. I've created a position for myself where I am not allowed to stall or everybody will pile on insult me for it. Everybody else can stall, no problem, but not me.

LOL. Stop stalling our game then, you have 100% lost for a lot of turns now.