Thank you Min34 for taking the time to articulate so clearly and concisely how I'm sure much of the silent majority feel. Great post.

I see that you are trying to take a stand in the middle. People like you make me sick the most.

Why? Because I can see that the both sides are spamming the forum with hatefilled bullshit that nobody cares about? Because I can see that you are also doing things wrong. Is that why I make you sick?

According to your twisted logic, Hitler and the French should just have shared France. You say that the other clans are also attacking the M'Hunters, however did the French attack Hitler? No, they were defending themself.

First off, it is idiotic to compare an online game and a forum filled with people you don`t know and will probably never really know to the situation before and during WWII. The fact alone that you did this, shows me that you take this way to serious. As a result your emotions will probably undermine your reasoning. Therefore it is mostlikely useless to try and argue with you as you won`t believe anything anyone says. Yet I`ll be nice and try.

I`m not saying Hitler and the French should`ve shared France (I don`t even know how to compare this to anything I said, so I`ll just use your words). I`m saying that blaming Germany for the second world war is way to simple. France is also to blame. So is Britain. Yet you are putting all the blame on one side (that side being MH). The French might not have directly attacked Germany, but they are partly responisible for the start of WWII. I`m not saying MH isn`t doing anything wrong, I`m saying that you are also part of the problem not only them.


YouMustBeKidding:

So, you are basically saying that it's cool if Norman only attacks a very few people completely at random

Min34, one post before:

He usually doesn`t just randomly start bashing people.

He will also go after you finally.

And then? Maybe you didn`t notice, but I don`t care about people that I don`t know. There are some players on this site with whom I`ve talked a lot. From those people I`ll take advice or critique. I don`t give a shit about most people on any site though (and that does include Norman). If he wants to go after me he`s free to do so. I can ignore him since this is nothing but one of many online fora and he is nothing but one of the many users on this site.
Why do people always have to focus on the people they don`t like? If you don`t like somebody shouldn`t you just ignore them and stay away from them. After all thats what most of you would do in real life as well. Why are you so obsessed about them on an online forum?

Yes as knyte has proven clearly as the light of every star in the universe put together, they have broken the rules. Players who were at risk of getting booted gave their loggin data to a teammate and thus avoided a boot in the clan league.

Is there any proof Knytes proof is correct? And even if it is, then it is up to the managers of the Clan League to do something. If they think it isn`t needed to ban MH then it isn`t. It is their league not yours.

Cheating the boot is the worst form of possible cheat in the clan league

No it isn`t. We have had much worse cheaters in public events. Including a player who logged in on the account of his friend (who was in the opponent team) and read all their chat and saw all their moves. And that player used this information to easily guide his team to winning the game. If you think cheating the boot is the worst they can do, you are mistaken.

Edited 7/21/2016 19:14:20

In what way can you gauge how the silent majority think Holdaway?

I'm pretty sure there's a lot like me who simply don't want to see things like this just swept under the table.

Knyte has leveled some pretty strong accusations and even supplied evidence, yet you and in your mind the silent majority think it's fine to ignore it and just carry on?

No-one in M'Hunters has really refuted the evidence as fake or anything, so i'm thinking the silent majority will draw their own conclusions and regard M'Hunters as who Knyte portrays them

If that's the case, then why oh why do we really want cancer like that within our community? Ostracizing them so they can fester in their own twisted way of behaving is surely the only real option I.M.O

If Fizzer did he job and investigated cheating (all of it, not just accusations against a few clans), then I doubt we would have vigilantes trying to impose their form of justice.

Because the standard authority is neglecting its job then others feel they have to take that authority upon themselves. I don't condone it but I understand why a few feel justice isn't being served.

It would be much wiser and cause less drama if the ANTI-M'Hunter faction took out their anger on Fizzer who can actually solve problems rather than all the members of MH who have no real power outside of diplomacy.

What exactly are the demands of the ANTI-M'Hunter faction? Or are you just causing drama to cause drama without any particular goal?

I haven't heard any specific proposed solutions to perceived problems in the three days that this drama has been going on (and I have been following it very closely) so I would assume the latter is true.

Grow up indibob. You have no goals here other than to spread hate and cancer.

Edited 7/21/2016 19:44:24

i'm personally not a member of the "ANTI-M'Hunter faction". I regard myself as a member of the silent majority who now isn't so silent simply because it's been assumed what we are thinking.

I therefore have no idea what they are demanding (except it seems "exclude M'Hunters from community events") but for most of us, I would think a statement from one of the leaders of M'Hunters to apologize for some of the behavior and a commitment to clean up their act would probably be a good outcome

Excluding players from Community events is not a solution to the Faction's perceived problem. NIGHT said it himself that it is merely a tool to correct behavior. The Ban is a means to an end. The ANTI-M'Hunter's faction has yet to tell the Council what actions they believe are fair and just. For three days they have just been spreading hate while providing no solutions whatsoever. Reminds me a lot of Donald Trump.

Edited 7/21/2016 19:55:59

As for the "apology" from one of the leaders is concerned, I do believe that is a negotiable platform. I can not speak for the leadership but I would await a response. Personally, I would not apologize. Nothing said was untrue or incendiary. M'Hunters is an elite clan and therefore we lead the way in terms of what is right and acceptable. I do apologize for the ego but its my honest opinion.

Edited 7/21/2016 20:04:34

M'Hunters is an elite clan and therefore we lead the way in terms of what is right and acceptable

That made me laugh, a lot.

Is there any proof Knytes proof is correct? And even if it is, then it is up to the managers of the Clan League to do something. If they think it isn`t needed to ban MH then it isn`t. It is their league not yours.

Knyte is correct, however what he assumes to be the cheating of the M'Hunters clan is only the tip of the iceberg. They feel so very sure in their dirty clan forums which their moderators protect from possible spying alts. However I managed to sneak myself into their clan with an alt. They are devious and trust nobody, but I never broke character ever. In their clan forums they discuss all their cheating attempts and how they try to destroy our precious WarLight community. I have trained years for this anti M'Hunters coup by playing thousands of diplo games which transformed me into the perfect roleplayer, never breaking character.

Here in this post, their criminal mastermind, talks about the planned cheating attempts for the clan league:
http://www2.pic-upload.de/img/31267207/proof.png
What more proof is there needed than hearing it from the criminal himself? Everybody who reads this post I'm linking here and still doesn't arreive at the correct conclusion must be a complete fool. So I'm asking anyone who reads the linked post to finally take a stand against the M'Hunters. Else everyone can see that you are so stupid .

Edited 7/22/2016 04:39:19

Thank you, IM. I was a part of the M'Hunters clan in the past however I just couldn't take their arrogant cheating attitude any longer. I'm sorry that I haven't warned others in the past, but they threatened me. Hereby I declare myself to not belong to the idiot fraction and I acknowledge all cheating of the M'Hunters to be true and having been witnessed by myself.

Don't you think excluding M'Hunters is a little bit too extreme? If you are really that convinced that they are cheating, just request to put a penalty down on them(more likely to happen than what you suggested) and deduct so many points. As for the disrespecting of other WL users, just report them and hope Fizzer takes it seriously. As of late, you guys are making it pretty hard for him to do that. The forum is quite a trash site these days and is being misused in a ton of ways. Odds are, that might be one of the reasons why Fizzer doesn't bother so much cleaning it all up. If we all contribute, maybe we might be able to convince him to do otherwise. It's your best bet! ;)

Idk if M'H cheated or not in the CL, if they have, they should be punished.

But really people, this is hilariously getting out of proportions, we have a reference to Hitler, and an Anti-M'H faction that behaviours like Trump. You don't realize that this is a game, and that you're taking this hole shit way too far? Calm the fuck down..

Just as a PSA and context:

1. M'Hunters are a good clan with lots of good people. I don't want people to walk out of this comparing them to Hitler for any reason. As I say in another thread:

None of these people are bad people, not even Nikolai or Norman... Norman's written indisputably the best strategy guide for beginners on this site. Nikolai has invested a lot of time and effort helping people build their strat skills in clans without a large strategic presence.

I also remember when someone used an alt called "Hell" to attack M'Hunters and how Norman was the first to jump to my defense when someone accused me of being behind things. When the AI thing initially happened, I tried to be as clear as possible that it was just AI, that his clan didn't know, that no one should blame M'Hunters (there'd been a bunch of previous incidents with other clans where the clan was blamed despite having no knowledge of their players' behavior and having done nothing to encourage it). And I'm glad Norman picked up on that and used the IP check privileges this site gives him as a moderator(?) to confirm that it was someone else. Most of my interactions with M'Hunters members have been great and have helped me grow as a player, too. I don't think any but maybe a few can say otherwise.

I really hope no one comes out of this believing I (or anyone else) sees them as inherently horrible or something. They've got their problems, and I think these hurt the community. Nothing beyond that. And yes, they should- like every other clan- have a chance to reform things internally. That's the only good route here. It's only if they decide not to fix things that the problem escalates. I wrote this when I believed they weren't fixing the problems and instead reacting to criticism with insults and harassment. But I'd be more than happy to be wrong about that, for all of this to be an overreaction on my part, for M'Hunters really being a responsible clan that doesn't tolerate abuse of other players, for all the stuff about Emu Pub/LTEmperor to not constitute cheating (like I say in the document I sent to both MotD and the public at large at http://bit.ly/mh-cl8-cheating- if the rule doesn't exist, forget about it and have a good day), etc.

But you're the community. You can judge that- or decide to stay out of it and let Fizzer or MotD take care of things; your call. I just wanted to supply and document information for the most part. Maybe see if I could get you guys to do something, but it's your choice not to if you think I'm off the deep end here. I appreciate how most members of the community have been respectful to both parties despite the subject matter. :)

2. Speaking of supplying and documenting information, and just for context- [IM]YouMustBeKidding is a suspected alt of Norman. For further documentation of that, consult OxTheAutist or Zephyrum (organizers of RP Clan League, which excluded [IM]YouMustBeKidding from competition on those grounds). I believe there's also a few [IM]YouMustBeKidding 1v1 games linked in one of those RP CL threads that tip it off, and you can also check their 3v3 ladder team (https://www.warlight.net/LadderTeam?LadderTeamID=11382) chat, turn speeds (and see how often Norman and YMBK make moves at the same time; compare that to the overlap between either of them and their other teammate), etc., but again- I think it's up to the community now and you can do your own research, make your own judgements. Not much I can really do or say past this point, and I'd rather stay out of things as much as I can to make this less personal and more about the community.

Again, apologies if my initial call to action did this, but I hope the conversation no longer stays extreme to the point that Norman doesn't feel comfortable unless he hides behind his alt or tries to use it NIGHT-style to make his opposition look more extreme.

Edited 7/21/2016 23:07:06

I think that is a reasonable post to end on.

What is this cancer?

But really people, this is hilariously getting out of proportions, we have a reference to Hitler

^ https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lei_de_Godwin

Muh fwees fwees. Knyte had his feelings hurt.

Funny, considering M'Hunters are the ones using personal attacks as a defence mechanism.

You wanna go another round Ox? Or is this your defense mechanism for how CORP is doing in CL8.

Edited 7/21/2016 23:10:47

- made false or unproven accusations against multiple players and clans

- made personal attacks against multiple players and clans

- excused the above behavior when done by members of their own clan

- mistreated many players, often on the grounds of lack of skill

- on multiple occasions, harassed other people (such as me and the Hysterical Koala) and clans (such as CORP- or in the condescending tone of Norman, "the Lawlz Clan") in threads completely unrelated to M'Hunters, derailing the discussion with uncalled-for personal attacks

Besides the fallacy of composition, the way you call out the community pointing us is replicating the hate rethoric of those claims. It's not exclusive to one clan, not from all their members.

The question is, if it's really that harmful? The players always have the options to blacklist and report a player if he is acting like a jerk.

- picked a known, egregious, willful ladder cheater (AI) to represent them in the maximum 3 tournaments in Clan League 8, thereby sending the message that- if you're a M'Hunter- you can cheat and get away with no consequences

I'm sorry if the community hates the way our CM's handle things, it may appear that we encourage cheating but we don't. We never promove the cheating just supported the player. It's a huge difference, as these are our clan values, we value more a friendship than the game. If it's morally wrong is open to the community, but still apart from the ladder there is nothing illegal in the CL affairs. The issue with the cheating corresponds to the WL authorities not the clan.

This was only my opinion as a MH member. Main is Espurr.

Edited 7/24/2016 03:36:40