I second that. Maybe we should petition fizzer to realize a realtime ladder.
Or better even, multiple ladders on multiple maps.

Please join someone again :( I want to play :(

i think the template has too many wastelands, giving not many variation with 5 picks each person

After playing the map more, I found some things I didn't quite like. So I updated the map: http://warlight.net/SinglePlayer.aspx?PreviewMap=22091.

Now I'm waiting for Fizzer to confirm this update. If PS wants to use the map still, he will have to update his template.

Changes:
- Bonus values decreased: small maps with a lot of income are a bit odd; ancient armies didn't field many troops in battle too; and this will make larger, previously underpicked territories more valuable.
- Athens and Sparta gained 1 territory in their bonuses.
- I deleted one territory from three underpicked bonuses (NE Pel, N/S Cyclades) to make them more valuable.
- I deleted 3 bonuses in Anatolia (I didn't like how those bonuses played out).

I think 3-4 starts would be better for the updated map, especially if the number of wastelands is not reduced.

The map and the settings used by ps were interesting and unique. Not everyone could handle them equally well since they differed a lot from 1on1 me. Now you streamlined it into something that forces the same overused and boring strategies as in 1on1 me.

Why did you do that in the running ladder?
Was it really necessary?

If you like it, ask Fizzer to have two maps.

I made changes based on what I think would make the MAP better, not based on what is best for one of many possible TEMPLATES. I played the map more in the last week than I had previously. More games = more thoughts about the map.

I like your assumptions about streamlining. You haven't even played the updated map! lol

No, I havent played it yet, but i looked at it.
I don`t need to play a map to have a first impression of how the games will be like, or how they will change to a previous version of a map that i played. Its called abstraction and if i werent able to do that, i shouldnt play warlight at all.
Its not 100% accurate but i can make a fair estimation of what will change.

Of course i know its your map and you are free to do what you want with it, but changing it in the midst of the most successful of ps new ladders, without giving anybody heads up, the participants/community or ps for that matter?
Don`t you think that was egoistical and could have been handled better?
Did the though never even cross your mind?

That was why i asked if it was really neccessary.

Q&As

...changing it in the midst of the most successful of ps new ladders...

if ps made a strat 1v1 real-time ladder it'd be more successful. more people like that than greece. just compare the two maps' total number of votes and average map rating. this is my version of 'abstraction'...

...without giving anybody heads up, the participants/community or ps for that matter?

i wrote that it would be changed before it was changed. if fizzer feels a need to not change anything, he won't.

Don`t you think that was egoistical and could have been handled better?

no. i don't really think it is that important. if a lot of people cry out "qi, bring back the older version! the new version is no good!" i will. the old versions of maps are all saved in every mapmaker's account. but i think the new map is better than the old map. if i didn't i wouldn't have changed anything.

Did the though[t] never even cross your mind?

yes, it never did.

----------------

have you ever seen the map preview page for the version of greece you like? have you noticed that Ionian League was always a bonus on the map? i just made it the principal bonus instead of an auxiliary bonus.

have you ever looked at NE Peleponnese carefully? isn't it odd that isthmus and corinth are so small?

have you read the map reviews for the map? the most common complaint: "there are too many connections in the islands." by deleting an island in 2 cyclades bonuses i decreased the number of connections there from 6 to 1 where syros used to be and from 4 to 1 where ios used to be.

and since giving athens and sparta 3 for 3 territories is not good and making them equal to less important bonuses with 3 territories isn't good, i added salamis to athens' bonus (it once belonged to athens) and cythera to sparta (it once belonged to sparta). now sparta and athens can be worth 2-4, while evia and messina (the only bonuses with 3 territories left on the map) can be worth 1. sparta/athens > evia/messina. this makes it slightly more historical and realistic. do you think this changed much? now, messina and evia have more value as counters.

differences in picks between the two map versions:

- fewer total picks in anatolia per game (fewer bonuses to pick): this pulls the map's center of gravity toward greece proper more
- evia and messinia won't be picked as much
- the 2 cyclades and north ageian islands will have more picks
- thrace has greater value, so that somewhat offsets the fewer picks in anatolia
- central aegian islands are safer (since there are less picks in anatolia), so that somewhat offsets the loss of picks in anatolia
- dodecanese is safer now, since anatolia has fewer picks, so this somewhat offsets the loss of the anatolian picks and stretches the map's center of gravity SE a bit
- epirus and crete are more attractive, so they stretch the map's center of gravity to the periphery a bit

mutli-day RR: http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?TournamentID=4782

some people play so slowly in real-time it is almost the same as a multi-day RR. so let's just make it one.

http://www.tpolm.org/~ps/wl_clot/greece1vs1/

anyone want a game?

i like the old map better.

http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=4265289

I think if you had taken Sparta's bonus you would have won.

of course
the old one was something special, this is the usual standard crap you get everywhere.

If Qi would be the critic, he would probably say something like:
If the maps would have been women for hire, the old one was a dignified 1000$ high class companion that rewarded you with everlasting experience if you knew to rub it the right way. The new one is the cheap 5$ dollar whore where everyone can get his shot at, resulting in the same dull, repetitive experience.

old one back for ps' ladder. new one will be a new map.

"If the maps would have been women for hire, the old one was a dignified 1000$ high class companion that rewarded you with everlasting experience if you knew to rub it the right way. The new one is the cheap 5$ dollar whore where everyone can get his shot at, resulting in the same dull, repetitive experience." ~ myhand

Boring, Unfunny and written poorly, this is not a good contender for the gui alts challenge.

But seriously; what did you like about the old greece map? I only played a few games on it, and it came across to me as a street fight. Most of the games I played people seemed quite annoyed with the template, and played it only because it was a RT ladder.

if i were a critic, i'd say:

map 1's use of cythera is bad. the islands in the middle are useless on that template. anatolia has odd interbonus connections, which make for odd strategies. and the bonus values are too high for such a little map, especially when compared to the original map (http://warlight.net/SinglePlayer.aspx?PreviewMap=1267), which was more about "how far can you get with base income?" than map 1's strategy of "are you able to think for 5 minutes to make picks?"

map 2 is more like the original map than map 1 is. that is why i like it more. when i first started playing warlight i used to play that original map from time to time and enjoyed its crude game play.

map 1's > 2
map before change was much better imho. now is unbalanced.

map 2 > map 1.
# of wastelands based on map 1 > same number of wastelands for map 2

i don't think van work if there are bonus 1/2 and 1/3.
1/3 became unnecessary...
gui, you usually make very good ma, but this time i disagree with value bonus + unbalanced