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World Powers: 3/30/2015 15:26:27


Жұқтыру
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Spain had a massive colonial empire, military, population and everyone in their population was pretty rich and literate (for the times). Pyotr I-on Russia started to conquer many countries.

China was weak compared to the European countries - China entered the dark ages in the 1400s and didn't really come from them until the 1900s.
World Powers: 3/30/2015 15:54:13

(retired)
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I am less familiar with the history of Russia but I at least know that Russia started to change with Peter the Great who did extensive reforms but still most of Russia was under developped (only St Petersburg could really compete with other european cities), and there was a cultural and economic gap between Russia and other European nations.

Spain had a massive colonial empire, military, population


El siglo de oro (the golden age) lasted 150 years, 1492 to 1650, Spain despite having still a big colonial empire was actually a kind of vassal state during the 18th century, first of the Autrichian dynasty of Habsburg and then the French dynasty of Bourbon. The War for the Spanish Succession ended with the relegation of Spain, now under Bourbon rule, to the status of a second-rate power with a reduced influence in European affairs. The age of enlightment did not reached Spain until mid-18th century. The economic decline started as early as 1557 and they declared bankruptcy at least 4 times from 1550 to 1600.
Any battle fought by Spain against other European nations were lost (Pyrenean treaty defining the modern French-Spanish border, many territories lost such as Roussillon, Florida, Netherlands, etc)

their population was pretty rich and literate (for the times).


The Spanish society was actually really inegalitarian (even for that period's standards) with a strong clergy owning everything, so you are here again totally wrong.
That's sad that Spain did not learn that much from their Muslim predecessors in culture, tolerance and science advances...

China was weak compared to the European countries - China entered the dark ages in the 1400s and didn't really come from them until the 1900s.


Again wrong, China wasnt lucky to find America which could have boosted the Chinese economy (certainly because of Pacific Ocean distances. As even their navy was more advanced compared to Europeans, if you ever heard of the admiral Zheng He who already almost one century before big European explorations started great expeditionary voyages with a massive fleet).
But even when the Ming dynasty collapsed, the next Qing dynasty for a time saved China and started great conquests, it is during the Qing dynasty (from 1600 to 1900) that China had its biggest territorial extent, and almost every Asian states were vassals of the Chinese Emperor.
So China faced a decline only when the Opium wars began (19th century), and that Europe benefited technical and military advances from the first industrial revolution, as most of the techonology acquired during the REnaissance was actually imported from China (paper/printing, artillery, military tactics, philosophy/culture)

Edited 3/30/2015 16:13:59
World Powers: 3/30/2015 15:56:19


Taishō 
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Did somebody forget the economic miracle of the 1950s in West Germany? The German economy was weak between 1919-1923 and 1945-1954, but other than that it was always in the top ten, so it's worth mentioning.

Regardless, the EU isn't going anywhere and why is Russia not being mentioned in the world powers of today? Just because their currency is weak and the economy is in ruins, doesn't mean the country doesn't have potential. All we need is for Putin to finally invade Ukraine and Russia will become a Superpower again.

21st Century:

Superpowers: China, US, Russia

Runner-ups:

EU - made up of some of the most powerful countries. Ageing population, declining birth rates, brain-drain, apathy, high unemployment, immigration problems, etc.

Japan/South Korea - Ageing population, declining birth rates, debt problems, border China.

India - big population and a growing economy, but there are so many problems plaguing the country and they can barely deal with their neighbors, Bangladesh and Pakistan, let alone take on the world stage.

Middle East/North Africa - oil is going to have its last big run sometime over the next 50 years and after that, the financial resources will dry up like all the water did thousands of years ago.

Brazil - Actually, there's a lot of potential here, but considering the rest of Latin/South America doesn't get along with their Portuguese-Native American-African powerhouse, this will hamper them greatly. That and the fact that they don't have the institutions to overhaul the economy when the natural resources start running out.

ASEAN - not a chance. They hate each other too much, the organization exists solely to keep them from going to war with each other.

Sub-Sahara - it has all the raw materials it needs to become a Superpower, but lacks everything else.
World Powers: 4/1/2015 13:50:01

[NL] Sander
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I think the Dutch Rebuplic should be added in 1700, they dominated the world economic most of the seventeenth century by controlling Indonesia and other parts of Asia + they had one of the best navies in the world to reach it

Edited 4/1/2015 13:51:28
World Powers: 4/2/2015 22:36:47

(DELETEDMAGA)
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actually that was the 1600s...
World Powers: 4/3/2015 01:16:36


[₩Ů£F] £Ų€ÏĐ ĎŔĒÅMĘŘ
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Roman Empire 117AD
World Powers: 4/3/2015 01:17:37


[₩Ů£F] £Ų€ÏĐ ĎŔĒÅMĘŘ
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Am I the only person who has realized Master Chief's number is 117 and the largest amount of land Rome ever had was 117AD?
World Powers: 4/6/2015 20:27:23


OttomanEmpire
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@[NL] Sander

Ja Nederland had de beste scheppen en was een van de rijkste landen maar ik denk dat ze een wereldkracht waren zoals Frankrijk en Britian.
World Powers: 4/6/2015 20:58:43

(retired)
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Ja ja ja ja ja!
World Powers: 4/7/2015 16:33:00


OttomanEmpire
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Ouais ouais ouais ouais ouais!
World Powers: 4/7/2015 18:54:09


Tyrion Lannister
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World Powers for today:
Im dividing this into two sections: military and economic.

Military:
1. US (do to having the most nukes)
2. China
3. Russia
4. Germany
5. UK/France/Turkey
6. India
7. Israel
8. Pakistan
9. North Korea/Egypt
(Egypt has one of the worlds largest armies; so does North Korea, despite their lack of funds)

Economic:
1. China
2. US (not for long though I think)
3. India
4. EU (not for long for them either)
5. Japan
World Powers: 4/7/2015 20:18:14


Жұқтыру
Level 56
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1. US (do to having the most nukes)


First of all, Sardegnan basements. Second of all, Russia has the most nukes, even according to Western estimates.

http://pictorial-guide-to-energy.blogspot.com/2011/06/1000-billion-in-nuclear-weapons.html

Tsh, America having the most nukes...are you kidding me?
World Powers: 4/8/2015 21:29:51

(retired)
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Tyrion Tyrion Tyrion... You know nothing Jon Snow...

Germany has almost no armies nowadays, and the EU (if we considered them as a whole nation) would be ranked 1st above the US in economy.
World Powers: 4/8/2015 21:32:51

tuddj
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China
World Powers: 4/8/2015 21:53:00

(retired)
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Superpowers of the past




You now see I was right about China it was not before the 19th century that China was downgraded from the 1st place.
World Powers: 4/10/2015 07:51:19


MrOobling
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It isn't just about the GDP. First off, there are different sources of income to just GDP- taxes which change acording to population mainly. Secondly, military is important when judging a countries strength. Sure, Spain might be the richest in the 1600 but without the military, other countries could just take them over (plus they had tonnes of inflation). Another thing is how developed the land is. Whether there are factories, decent living conditions, religious temples, courthouses, palaces etc... In 1820, China was allready falling behind in the agricultural revolution. But the main factor in this case was technology- China was behind in the 1500s. By the 1800s, they were so behind that the Europeans could just claim the entirety of China.
World Powers: 4/10/2015 08:53:12

(retired)
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First off, there are different sources of income to just GDP- taxes which change acording to population mainly


mmh that GDP trend, this has been made by a serious economist which have done many researches, something I think you are not.

military is important when judging a countries strength. Sure, Spain might be the richest in the 1600 but without the military,


I agree with you military is important and China was far above Europe until the 18th century.
Btw it is true that China was not really improving in the 1800s, but not declining either, the Chinese empire was in his biggest expansion ever, gathering lands from east Kazakhstan, Mongolia, nowadays parts of east siberia, some islands which are currently Japanese, plus many vassal states such as Korea, Vietnam, Siam, Japan, etc.
China had also tributes from many countries under the Qing, most of Asia actually, even the Portuguese, the Dutch and later the British in the 18th century, the British paid tribute as late as 1886 and the Burmah convention, putting themselves in a lower status.

China was behind in the 1500s.


Again wrong, China in the 1500s was still more advanced than Europe in many fileds, some examples: I remind you that Gutenberg developped the printing press in the 15th century but it became really common in the 16th century, whereas in China block printing was already common in 1300 and invented in 1040, do not also forget the invention of paper already known in China one millenia before Europe... The gunpowder and modern artillery was developped first in China in the 7th century long before the European ever knew how to use an arquebus or cannons (in the 14th century). Other major inventions: the compass, chemical warfare, mathematics such as the negative numbers (not used in Europe before 1545 by Girolamo Cardano...).
Contrary to most of the European states (until the 18th century), China was a very efficient state, the government maintained a complex network of officials, and civil exams. Hence, the merit system existed millenias before than in Europe, and the Chinese were overally more literate than Europeans. These civil exams spread to British India in the 17th century and to Europe then. Not also forgetting other innovations in medicine, architecture, culture, philosophy, cuisine, etc etc.

Even in the 19th century when China was too weak to defend its borders against the Europeans, they could not entirely invade it, during the opium wars some cities (SHanghai, Hong Kong, Port Arthur, etc) were taken but not the country. It is not before the industrial revolution that China was clearly behind the Europeans.

I would say finally that what changed everything in the world balance of powers is the discovery of America by Europeans, if China discovered it (some scholars even say that China may have discovered the western coast of America in the 1400s during Zheng He big expeditions and explorations) and colonized it before, then it would have been still continiously the first world super power, but the Pacific Ocean is way more larger than the Atlantic one, and after Yongle the great Ming emperor, following emperors unfortunately closed China and stopped any further explorations (that's partly due to the fact that the ancient chinese believed that China was the center of the world, and surroundding regions were not interesting, underdeveloped and populated by uncivilized barbarians, which is not really untrue during that period if you just look at the Mongols, Turks etc). So the Europeans got lucky on that.

Edited 4/10/2015 10:26:35
World Powers: 4/10/2015 10:51:44


Жұқтыру
Level 56
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Wait, was your graph serious, Angry Panda?

Hmm, nice source collecting.

Come on, anyone with any brain bit knows that this can't be verified or true. The bloke who made this graph is BS-ing you, hard.

Hmm, I wonder what that little bump in America is 1000-1500. And America skyrocketed since the first Spanish incursions (first money).

ome scholars even say that China may have discovered the western coast of America in the 1400s during Zheng He big expeditions and explorations


TSHHHHHHHHHHH

Edited 4/10/2015 10:53:40
World Powers: 4/10/2015 11:06:34

(retired)
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This graph was made by Angus Maddison who was one of the most influential writers in the field of history and comparative analysis of economic growth. His databases are still used as they are the most important sources of analysis of long-term economic growth.
Of course this graph could not show precisely the GDP of superpowers of the past as it is an estimation, but it was a serious work, so you can consider it as a reliable graph, based on many datas (we know quite precisely how much inhabitants there were for at least 1500 years, there are also many economic and technological datas you can considerate based on historical records). Furthermore, I myself had some courses about Chinese history, geopolitics, economics and culture, so you can trust me for what I wrote earlier.

Edited 4/10/2015 11:07:06
World Powers: 4/10/2015 11:20:12

(retired)
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some scholars even say that China may have discovered the western coast of America in the 1400s during Zheng He big expeditions and explorations



TSHHHHHHHHHHH



This is a really controversial theory promoted by Gavin Menzies in his book "1421: The Year China Discovered the World". The discovery of America I myself do not trust it, as it is classified as pseudo-history. But what we already know is China in this period with Zheng He admiral's fleet navigated in many areas as far as East Africa, with a massive fleet: 30000 men and a fleet of 62 treasure ships (gigantic ships of 130 metres long) supported by approximately 190 smaller ships, something European were not able to match until the 18th century.

Edited 4/10/2015 11:20:57
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