@Nauzhror

you reply to all posts, you are omnipresent and you do not even part of a clan!
you're bored in your life? what you meddle

First of all, I want to thank all organizers of this great event. You put in a bunch of work. Keep on the great work! I do not know the complete history of the clan league as well as I do not know the complete turn of events which lead to the Outlaw players leaving 101st.

Anyway, through my eyes the legal situation is pretty clear. In a clan league the participation right is owned by the clan not by the players in the clan. I do not know a single popular league, where the participation right is owned by players. And for that reason 101st has the right to participate in Div. A.

The legal situation is that clear, that all Outlaw players did know that they will lose the right of participation in Div. A, when they were leaving. They did decide to leave nevertheless and that’s their right. But the consequences were very clear.

I did read about unlucky turn of events in the past of this great tournament and reservations linked to the current situation with 101st/Outlaws. But as far as I read, as a result of the unlucky history you put up the possibility to join Div. C as new good clan - as Outlaws is without any question.

In the end I want to say, that I will accept any solution, but I want to point out, that the current legislation in this case will cause problems in the future. As the legislation does not follow the inner logic of the clan league new discussions will appear:
How much players are enough to get the spot? When does the divide did take place? Who can be blamed for the divide? …

All in all, the current legislation will always lead to the situation that the council -who always consist of real people with emotions and sympathies- has to take the decision. Do you really want to put yourself in such a bad situation?

Edited 10/16/2016 21:22:09

It seems to me that in a way Platinum made his own clan within 101st and moved out in right time.
I get that he and his apprentices made 101st team great, but you can't just group-jump between clans and appear as debuting clan in div A while knocking out other clan to absolute bottom. XS/ONE and BIA/CPU didn't have one of them still competing so there was nothing to lose to XS or CPU, while 101st is very much alive. Clan banner matters, that's what everyone subscribes to.
Maybe better solution would be to have both clans in B, as there propably will be a dropout in A/B anyway?
It was a hard decision to do, have to admit that. But starting at the bottom would be for Outlaws just as bad as for 101st.

Yeah, would putting both clans in A/B (or one in each) be such an issue? if anyone drops out, they can fill that space, or just include an extra relegation next season?

In my opinion 101 should never be in A while Lynx is in there because 101 is Lynx B (with another name but that doesn't matter). But I agree that sending them to C is unfair, that's why, even with the current decision of promoting Outlaws, I would say that 101 should remain in B. If there are no dropouts in A/B, then, we could have a CL9 with 1 more team in B and relegate 3 to normalice it in CL10.

Aside from this discussion, it should be made clear what happen with "B" teams. For now we only have Lynx/101 but maybe large clans want to have more than a team or something.

Edited 10/16/2016 22:14:31

I agree with Hades and Onoma. As it is for now, Outlaws wins everything and 101st loses everything. It doesn't have to be like this, it can be more fair. The least would be not to send 101st back to the very bottom

EDIT: Memele +1

Edited 10/16/2016 22:15:04

In my opinion 101 should never be in A while Lynx is in there because 101 is Lynx B (with another name but that doesn't matter). But I agree that sending them to C is unfair, that's why, even with the current decision of promoting Outlaws, I would say that 101 should remain in B. If there are no dropouts in A/B, then, we could have a CL9 with 1 more team in B and relegate 3 to normalice it in CL10.

This is another point (Lynx and 101st in same division). I would completly understand, if one would leave Div. A for non-feeder clans. That would put 101st to Div. B and another clan would be promoted. But it is a more general question.

I would also understand if one would say: We want to put Outlaws to Div. B, they have shown that they can compete over there last season (at least playerwise). They would get a wildcard for Div. B. Anyway, as every new Clan Outlaws has to stabilize (one working season is not a guarantee that you will have sucess next season).

Teaser pic for CL9:

So basically 101st can never join Division A with some of your logic? What's the point of even trying to win now? There is NO reward.


I'm not going to comment of the decision, that's what the panel is for. But tbh, Outlaws chose to still play under the 101st name within CL, they should have known what that meant. Sounds like it's pretty easy to hijack a spot though. Worth noting people ;)


How about this, starting next season, if you leave the clan you are participating in CL with, then you drop YOURSELF from CL. The clan can then put in a replacement. This would prevent this from ever happening again.

Stay classy, CLAN league ;)

I think its logic that 101st can't promote to the same division as lynx. It's the same as in the (Dutch)football competition where the reserve team can win the competition but can't promote to the division of the main team.

Edited 10/16/2016 23:28:55

Ok, First of all, I want to say how much I appreciate the larger clan community rallying to help out 101st during this time. I am shocked at how many different clans have come to support us.

Secondly, there are some people saying that clan league was not colluding in any way, but just flat made the wrong decision. Unfortunately, that was not the case as was confirmed to me in a conversation that I had with Outlaw leadership.

Two different stories.
MOTD told me as recently as three days ago when things all started flying to pieces that there had been no talks between members of the panel and members of the Outlaws clan during the decision period. At the time this seemed off to me as they had already made clear to me that they were not going to be following their own rules and/or precedent. Very off. So if you're not following your own rules and precedent, how could you make a decision without discussing things with the affected parties? You couldn't. To think otherwise would be silly.

One of the leaders of Outlaws had a frank (and civil) dialogue with me last night and in that talk, they admitted that yes, Outlaws had been in contact with the panel about this decision. As a matter of fact, they had on and off contact for weeks. They said the dialogue started when the discussion of replacement players first came up (almost two months ago). Now let me be clear: I don't fault the Outlaws for this. If the decision will be subjective, contact is not only required. It is positively encouraged.

But here's the important question that raises: Why was the 101st clan kept in the dark throughout this whole process? And why is MOTD denying that any talks with Outlaws happened when clearly they did and from the perspective of Outlaws, they didn't feel that they were supposed to kept secret. Did MOTD just forget weeks worth of dialogue? An earlier commenter spent the time to catalog out MOTD's conflict of interest in favoring the Outlaws, so I'm not going to rehash that, but brings me back to my point.

Whether the Bias was intentional or not, there was Bias. Aside from Bias, why else would Outlaws be invited to the table, but not 101st? Why else would they have contact, and yet deny that same contact ever happened?

There have been people pointing out that the panel is becoming discouraged and this sort of thing is what caused ChrisCMU to retire from that position in the first place. That is not at all my intention. I don't want them to be discouraged. I don't want to beat them up in public and drag their names through the mud. I simply want them to do the right thing. I want them to recognize what decisions are theirs to make and what decisions are not. I want them to not arbitrarily start deciding which clans deserve what. I just want them to do the right thing.

There have been many suggestions that have been brought out in the public forum for how to solve this problem without acting unethically or hurting anyone's feelings. Why doesn't clan league leadership simply put together a group of people to settle this. The group could consist of one leader from every division A clan and every division B clan as well as myself and Plat (or other designee). One of the clan league panel could sit in to observe or all of them could. They wouldn't even have to be active. As you can see, people on here feel very strongly about getting this one right. And if this group walks away with an disfavorable result for one party it won't be all the major warlight clans against clan league leadership. It will be a few disgruntled people upset at the whole clan community. That is my suggestion for a solution if the clan league leadership wishes to find a solution. If they intend to dig their heels in and double down on a bad decision, there's not much else I can do about it.

Edited 10/17/2016 01:58:09

What makes a clan, the tag or the players? Since people move around between clans so frequently, I say it's the tag. The players who are now in outlaws signed up to represent 101st, and earned the spot in division a. So the rule should be that the clan tag retains the spot in clan league, not a certain percentage of players.

But rules need exceptions. If the old clan is not able to field a lineup OR is agreeable to surrendering their spot, then the new clan should get it. The old clan should have the prerogative to release their spot.

However, there is another element here. 101st and Lynx are affiliated with each other. For that reason, they should nor be allowed to play in the same division as each other. That would present the opportunity for them to forfeit games to themselves. I don't believe 101st/Lynx possess the complete lack of integrity to execute such a plan, but as a rule, affiliated clans should not be allowed to play in the same division, especially the template selecting division.

I agree with the council's decision, but result wish rules were written down for consistency's sake.

send 101st to the very bottom

you guys want something to complain to cl management about, Hydra is (likely) one spot away from promoting to division b, and we're being sent to the very bottom. Yes we're seeded, but at the end of the day, we have to be better than all the other clans down here to promote.

Those are my opinions, and i thank clan league management for all the time and energy they put in to run this league for us.

So everyone has talked this whole thing out. I don't think there is anything new to say that hasn't already been posted, dissected, argued and reargued already. Unless people want to continue ad nauseum, I personally am tired of this.

I havent played in CL but I dont like injustice when I see it and as such I'll give my input here, for whatever it's worth. And btw i'm totally neutral of clans and players involved, i have a tone of respect for MotD, Beren and all other CL Panels and their effort into running so successfully this CL, and i'm not representing my clan opinion here just mine.

So 101st and Lynx can't be in the same division because they could corrupt the votes for templates ? But that's also possible for any clans sharing a good relationship (possibly secretly ; and ideally with same tastes for templates), or for Alts playing for another clan, but actually favoring their original clan in their vote. Ofc nobody would believe in any of those, but technically there is no way to prove otherwise, nor is possible to prove that 101st and Lynx would try to cheat.

Moreover it has been said that they may have different tastes for templates so unless 101st is there only to decorate and help Lynx perform, which I doubt -and Lynx don't need this btw. No I think they would try to perform as good as possible and thus vote for the templates they prefer, on their own.

101st is not called Lynx II, is not managed by the same person, it has its own ambition to get good players and perform and so on so it has its own independence.

For the division if the decision remains as it is, the CL panel are sending the message that any clan can lose its division and start from the bottom anytime, as soon as some of its players, who btw had probably been trained during their time in the clan, leave for another clan. This is wrong. Otherwise this is the door open to possible future blackmail by players, the clan loses some of its attraction when recruiting new players despite getting high in CL season after season and having now to start from bottom. And like Hades said, this is also saying a group of players can try to get into a line up of a clan only to steal the spot the clan is the season after, sending the clan to the bottom of CL. CL could not be trusted after that as uncertainty could happen anytime. Risk is will clans put as much effort into CL with that in mind from now on ?

I'll also add that with the new CL format, the price of starting at the bottom is not the same as in the past. It would be a big deal for 101st which has done nothing wrong to deserve to start from bottom, it wouldn't for 101st since not only they chose to leave in knowledge of likely consequence of starting from bottom, but in 2 seasons can be in the division they earn.

Right now, this is assuming Outlaws will be stronger than 101st when CL9 starts, and than any other clans in lower divisions too since this is also unfair to every clan which had to start from bottom when they joined the league. But with all players movements, retirements and hijacks, nobody can predict the future. So basing a decision today on what could happen months from now is a bit of a gamble. What will happen if things turn around and 101st appear to actually become stronger by then than Outlaws, or some Outlaws players decide to come back to 101st, or leave Outlaws, or anything ? Ofc all those are unlikely and I dont wish anything like that, but since future can not be predicted for sure, no assumption should be made.

If 101st (will) stand a chance in Div A is also out of subject, this can be questioned about any clan with all possible (yet unlikely) movements by then. And for the Lynx/One (whichever I forgot) story, the right decision was made, even if the new level was not reflecting the division. Morale was followed, rules were followed and CL panel showed consistency to everyone : no dodgy thing are tolerated. And players involved cant really complain or be complained : its their choice and they got their first goal, get their independence from their original clan. Plus they've already hurt the original clan by leaving it, isnt that enough harm already ?

Edited 10/17/2016 02:51:17

Mike, most of the stuff you said is true but this doesn't apply:

"as soon as some of its players, who btw had probably been trained during their time in the clan, leave for another clan"

-At the time I was in 101st, 101st felt almost totally dissociated from Lynx with almost 0 help coming from them. I am pretty sure that this separation between 101st and Outlaws have been somewhat beneficial to Lynx as they seem to be more involved in 101st now than before. When we separated from Lynx, we expected that we could maybe start from the bottom of Clan League. Outlaws never had the intention to formaly steal 101st spot but we felt we had a claim to get in A. I don't mean by that that Outlaws claim was or is superior to 101st's, but we were prepared at that time to either play in lower divisions or get the division A spot, depending on what the panel would opt for.

Edited 10/17/2016 02:34:55

@GE,

Some more Cat GIF's are a worthy addiction.

I was talking more in general : say a group of players who perform in CL leave the clan and "steal" the spot, but that group of players became strong thanks to a long time spent in the clan during which they experienced games and training and so on, well, then both the players and the clan itself are as much responsible for their success in CL.

Whether this is the case of 101st is not relevant IMO. CL Panel can not investigate whether players have spent a long time in the clan, have actually been trained or not by others from the clan. We just dont differentiate. A steal of spot just can not happen.

Edited 10/17/2016 02:46:15

-- "101st is not called Lynx II, is not managed by the same person, it has its own ambition to get good players and perform and so on so it has its own independence."

This is basically not true. This is exactly what we wanted and why, as a group, we had to leave.

Well could you develop then ?

Because the way I imagine it (from the outside)
- when 101 is playing CL, players try to do their best and their goal is to promote (and not promote to just give their vote to Lynx or surr against Lynx, as if Lynx would need this anyway)
- they are not pupeted by Lynx (they dont share accounts)
- 101 has a leader who is not in Lynx and has a role in the clan (decide line ups at least, possibly with help from Lynx here)

I doubt you guys would have stayed so long there without any kind of freedom. Maybe you were an elitist group of players (not in a bad way at all) who for some reasons were not accepted in a stronger clan like Lynx (have you tried MH btw ?? jk), and didnt want to be mixed with random level of players. Ofc im not talking to anyone so that's pure assumptions that outside people like me can only imagine.

Edited 10/17/2016 03:05:09

I think the highlighted and hidden posts show which way the vocal majority are swaying on this decision. Clan League, either receive the wake up call you've been given right now, or allow this to be yet another one of the bad decisions that the name is already tarnished with.