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Clan League 8: Division C - Official Thread: 7/6/2016 23:53:40


Onoma94
Level 61
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^
Why did you took Oulu in first turn? It didn't lead you to anything but losing an army.

Didn't analyze anything else.
Clan League 8: Division C - Official Thread: 7/7/2016 02:12:26


Norman 
Level 58
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@Norman Would you please explain why https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=11192427 was a lost game for me? Well this is RPCL2 but please explain..thanks!

Meow!


Hello Tabby

I guess you had some discussions about why you lost since you are asking me now. This wasn't a clear right out of the bat loss but a couple of problematic stuff finally lead to your defeat.

- Luna {TJC} failed to win against his opponent in the islands. Turn 1 he attacked first order and thus lost more armies than his opponent. Turn 2 he should have taken his bonus. He was the guy who was supposed to grow strongest. Also this deploying 4 in Ireland and 1 in Benelux didn't make any sense at all. If he had taken his bonus turn two and without to shabby play in the following turns this should have been enough to transfer this game into a victory. Apart from some moving around in Russia you see, that Luna {TJC} only fought against GeneralPE up until turn 7. He managed to lose despite GeneralPE having the worse position after picks and GeneralPE eliminating Tabby from Finland.

- If DR.Love had just deployed full into Russia first turn (and perhaps a 1 army tap to his opponent) and focused there the following turns, you also would have won the game. Alternatively Tabby Juggernaught could have moved into position in Russia. If you had cleared the center of also Quetz the game would have played out differently. However Dr. Love's position in Russia was really good, this one pick took out 3 opponents picks in this area.

- As for you, you shouldn't have moved in Finland first turn. You were the small income guy and couldn't do the main fight in the center + Russia.
Clan League 8: Division C - Official Thread: 7/7/2016 07:13:41


l4v.r0v 
Level 59
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Ranked by Points Behind:

Rank          Clan          Points Behind
1st           M'H           -
2nd           VS            12
3rd           BIA           29
4th           Hydra         29.5
5th           CORP          44
6th           LEA           72.5


For Points Behind I just used a variation of the standard Games Behind formula:

((Leader Points Won - Clan Points Won) + (Clan Points Lost - Leader Points Lost)) / 2

Edited 7/7/2016 07:14:09
Clan League 8: Division C - Official Thread: 7/7/2016 08:35:41


Green Turtle 
Level 62
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Those Points Behind confirms that results in group C are pretty much settled. MH and VS are not only way ahead, but were also seen as stronger before CL8 started. The opposite can be said on LEA. Does anyone know how stable a trend like this was in previous clan leagues?

Edited 7/7/2016 08:40:28
Clan League 8: Division C - Official Thread: 7/7/2016 09:55:25


l4v.r0v 
Level 59
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Points Behind does tend to break down, however, when there's a significant disparity in points contested. For example, a 60-51 team (.541 win rate) is only 0.5 games behind a 10-0 team. You can see it in other divisions with much larger disparities- Blitz (Div B) is near the bottom by Points Behind when it's at the very top by success rate (it's just only contested about 20 points while everyone else is way ahead).

So the meaning of the comparison changes a bit. If Team A and Team B have played about the same number of games (in a league where there's a consistent set number of games at the end of the season) and neither of them is ahead or behind, that means they'll end up at the same spot if they just match each other's pace. If Team B is 5 games behind, that means- in order to catch up to Team A- it needs to not only match pace but also flip 5 losses into wins on top of that (or sweep Team A in a 5-game series; basically you need 5 "extra" wins from B and 5 "extra" wins from A).

To model this a bit further (assuming an 82 game season in loving memory of Kevin Durant's sense of pride); Needed to Catch Up assumes that Team A plays the rest of the season at a .500 win rate and reflects the record Team B needs in its remaining games to finish with the same overall record

Team A Initial     Team B Initial     Games Behind    Needed to Catch Up
20-20              20-20              0               21-21
20-20              19-21              1               22-20
20-20              10-30              10              31-11
25-15              20-20              5               26-16

Now let's shake things up a bit and assume that Team A performs at 30/42 after these initial games

Team A Initial     Team B Initial     Games Behind    Needed to Catch Up
20-20              20-20              0               30-12
20-20              19-21              1               31-11
20-20              10-30              10              40-2
25-15              20-20              5               35-7


So it's pretty simple here to see what Games Behind means when calculated at the stage where both teams have the same number of finished games- "In order for Team B to catch up to Team A, they need to not only match Team A's record in all following games but also flip (Games Behind) Team A losses into Team B wins"- if you're 1 Game Behind, 30-12 has to become 31-11 (12 - 1 => 30 + 1); 10 games behind it becomes 40-2 (12 - 10 => 30 + 10).

But now let's see how it works out when there's a difference in games played (going back to .500 expectation):

Team A Initial     Team B Initial     Games Behind    Needed to Catch Up
22-20              20-18              0               22-22
22-20              20-20              1               22-20
22-20              19-21              2               23-19
22-20              10-30              11              32-10
22-20              0-30               21              42-0
30-20              20-20              5               26-16
30-20              20-10              0               26-26
41-41              10-10              0               31-31
41-41              10-0               -5              31-41


And now with .750 expectation:

Team A Initial     Team B Initial     Games Behind    Needed to Catch Up
22-20              20-18              0               32-12
22-20              20-20              1               32-10
22-20              19-21              2               33-9
22-20              10-30              11              42-0
22-20              0-30               21              gg no re
30-20              20-20              5               34-8
30-20              20-10              0               34-18
41-41              10-10              0               31-31
41-41              10-0               -5              31-41


You'll notice that there's not a clean transition in terms of the win rate needed to catch up. Looking at just the top entries in these last two, the switch from .5 to .75 for A makes for a switch from .5 to .727 for B (which would be even less pronounced had there been a greater difference). Notice that .727 = (4 * .5 + 40 * .75) / 44. In other words, the win rate Team B (with 0 games behind) needs to maintain to compete with Team A is actually a weighted average- (# of extra games A has contested relative to B) * (.5) + (# of remaining games for A) * (A's win rate). You do all the loss-to-win flipping (which still works here, as you can see above) after that.

This is a pretty simple phenomenon- game difference doesn't compare teams based on win rate but rather based on (wins - losses); I could actually just redo this analysis as a ranking by (wins - losses) since that's essentially the same thing. This is why a 40-30 team isn't "behind" a 10-0 team or a 20-10 team; as far as the games behind stat is considered, these teams are identical. But that also means a 45-35 team is just as good as an undefeated 10-0 team by this stat, and a 2450-2430 team is superior.

I could perhaps resolve this issue by instead considering the success rate a clan would have to maintain to "catch up" to the clan that's currently contested the most points, but that would still give a 10-0 team the same rank as a 40-30 team in certain cases.

Edited 7/7/2016 10:18:56
Clan League 8: Division C - Official Thread: 7/8/2016 23:14:37

Mike
Level 59
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Haa I finally know what "gb" stands for in nba standings :-) (I knew what it was about).
Clan League 8: Division C - Official Thread: 7/8/2016 23:32:41


l4v.r0v 
Level 59
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lol NBA and MLB get way too stat-heavy and I hate how the discussion on stats is kind of a flavor-of-the-month deal; one playoff series you talk about +/-, another one it's OffRtg or DefRtg, and then after a while we just get tired and go back to points or (if we're feeling fancy) shot charts.

Edited 7/8/2016 23:33:02
Clan League 8: Division C - Official Thread: 7/9/2016 19:02:18


Chromeo
Level 58
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This is why D has more comments. We have no topic to talk about. They can talk about their games thanks to daily updates.
Clan League 8: Division C - Official Thread: 7/9/2016 19:32:33


Onoma94
Level 61
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Ok, CORP is now officially getting destroyed. {*}

Edited 7/9/2016 19:32:46
Clan League 8: Division C - Official Thread: 7/9/2016 22:14:15


Great Expanse 
Level 60
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@Chromeo, what do you want to talk about? I fail to see how me not updating everyone with daily updates is stifling conversation. And to that, after I post often there is a long delay before anyone says anything, and even then no one talks about stuff much. So, if you want more discussion, tell me what you want to talk about so I can facilitate stuff.

Add to all of this, I'm on vacation right now so my interest in updating this thread is very low.
Clan League 8: Division C - Official Thread: 7/10/2016 00:40:40


Hog Wild
Level 58
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ummm... enjoying your vacation? XD
Clan League 8: Division C - Official Thread: 7/10/2016 03:57:03


Benjamin628 
Level 60
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I'll update it you nub GrEx
Clan League 8: Division C - Official Thread: 7/10/2016 08:06:12


Ox
Level 58
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https://youtu.be/mrQDkksUyCU?t=120

Review this once a week.
Clan League 8: Division C - Official Thread: 7/10/2016 20:26:48


Great Expanse 
Level 60
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1v1 Greece Results:


    Clan (Player)           Record
1st VS (Glamorous)          (5-0)
2nd BIA (Robert E Lee)      (4-1)
3rd M'Hunters (AI)          (3-2)
4th CORP (BigMeck)          (1-4, 1-1)
4th Hydra (Green Turtle)    (1-4, 1-1)
4th LEA (Ih70)              (1-4, 1-1)

Congrats to Glamorous of VS for sweeping the Greece tournament! This division was supposedly stacked but its likely Green Turtle underperformed greatly and BigMeck didn't show up to complete games.

Green Turtle got one solo win against LEA while getting run over but everyone else with ease including BigMeck which finished that one game and was booted in the next 4. BigMeck is part of the ongoing activity issues CORP is having across their lineup currently.

Overall, with Hydra, CORP and LEA performing poorly, M'Hunters and BIA (doing much better then I think many would have assumed) are the runners up in 2nd and 3rd.

1v1 Battle Islands:


    Clan (Player)           Record
1st BIA (tartan1314)        (4-1)
2nd CORP (Smutney Edgar)    (3-2, 1-1)
2nd M'Hunters (TBest)       (3-2, 1-1)
2nd VS (Gibson)             (3-2, 1-1)
5th Hydra (Milly)           (2-3)
6th LEA (mrreed345)         (0-5)

Congrates to tartan1314 of BIA for winning the tournament! We have yet another tied mess for runner up between M'Hunters, CORP and VS. So far, this is the one of two positive win records in tournaments for CORP. Hydra and LEA rounding out the division.

Edited 7/11/2016 02:52:12
Clan League 8: Division C - Official Thread: 7/10/2016 22:05:05


Chromeo
Level 58
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@Great Expanse: There are plenty of interesting games and some had suprising results. Not everyone has time to check other games, including me, but I would like to know about them. So what I meant? If someone (it hasn't to be necessary you) would post games results and at least sometime with some commentary. Then we would discus about this games. I'm sure there are many people who would volunteer (like Tabby Juggernaut for example).

It is just an idea/suggestion so feel free to start a discussion :)
Clan League 8: Division C - Official Thread: 7/10/2016 22:20:27


Hog Wild
Level 58
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fyi G.E. you mention LEA twice in your third paragraph :P
Clan League 8: Division C - Official Thread: 7/11/2016 02:53:26


Great Expanse 
Level 60
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@Chromeo, that is a good idea. I will probably need to reach out to players to 'nominate' games to lighten the work load of reviewing games of interest. But I can look through the completed tournaments to find interesting games.
Clan League 8: Division C - Official Thread: 7/11/2016 16:25:42


Great Expanse 
Level 60
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Quick Update:




I'm back from a short vacation and I want to keep this short. M'Hunters and VS still lead. BIA had an awesome weekend and are now in 3rd. CORP has begun to dip again, the win rate graph is interested to look at to see CORPs dips and rebounds. LEA has continued their losing streak, now extended to 11 days. Anyone want to take bets on when they win their next game?
Clan League 8: Division C - Official Thread: 7/11/2016 17:28:07


Hog Wild
Level 58
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wow, nice job BIA!
Clan League 8: Division C - Official Thread: 7/12/2016 18:48:33


Rogue NK
Level 59
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Aldehyde has won French Brawl! Even if he loses his game against Ven, he still has the tie breaker win against Hunta. Congrats Aldehyde!

Update: The ME 0% SR tournament will be determined by the outcome of this game. https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=11505932.
Whoever wins this game wins the tournament. Who will win? Chromeo? ppface?

Edited 7/12/2016 18:54:56
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